Has the Colony Swarmed?

[einsteinagogo]

Last inspection was on the 18th April 2014, no queen cells seen, put on another super, last Friday 18th 2014, so now have two supers on, colony is very near OSR.

At 3pm today, a neighbour rang me at work, and told me your Bees have swarmed, dashed home in 45 minutes.

The reported football size ball or bees in the hedge was not present, and he said they all went home to the hive, and the hive front was covereged in bees, and they were all going back in! (he said they must like you).

He told me he watch the bees, and the ball seem to slowly disperse back to the hive, and didn't fly away on mass!

A bit perplexed, if I had come home and seen the ball, would have shaken them off into a box, and put in another hive....standard sort of swarm collection technique (although never done it, just watched!).

So, carry on with normal inspection tomorrow, and check for sealed queen cells? and "count the bees see if any missing".

quickly looked through crown board this morning, and didn't see any bees rushing around....

Comments and advice always welcomed.

 

[Cul a cnoic]

Was your queen clipped, if so she would have not made the swarm and is lying in the grass somewhere. That is one theory but one of the more fimilar beeks on here should answer shortly.


Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2

 

[einsteinagogo]

Was your queen clipped, if so she would have not made the swarm and is lying in the grass somewhere. That is one theory but one of the more fimilar beeks on here should answer shortly.


Sent from my GT-S5830 using Tapatalk 2

I do not think the queen could have been clipped, this colony arrived as a large swarm last year, possible prime, in June, never seen the queen, maybe she has damaged wings, or is dead in the grass somewhere, cannot see any bees clustered anywhere.

(although she's been in thre Hive, etc)

Yes, I've been looking in the grass, there are lots of bees outside the entrance and landing board, with bumps in the air, showing off their Nasonov glands, obviously signalling this is "home", never really seen this many do it before.

Inspection, I'm sure will reveal tomorrow, if I missed QCs!

 

[itma]

…
At 3pm today, a neighbour rang me at work, and told me your Bees have swarmed, dashed home in 45 minutes.

The reported football size ball or bees in the hedge was not present, and he said they all went home to the hive, and the hive front was covereged in bees, and they were all going back in! (he said they must like you).

He told me he watch the bees, and the ball seem to slowly disperse back to the hive, and didn't fly away on mass!

A bit perplexed …

I think you 100% definitely missed a QC on the 18th (if not before).

What your neighbour saw was either
- a failed swarm, when Q didn't join the cluster on the hedge
or
- a mating flight, when a princess leaves, sometimes some of the bees get entirely the wrong idea and 'swarm' after her. When she doesn't stop on a hedge or tree nearby, and heads off into the distance, looking for the boys, then the bees 'swarming' around the apiary realise they don't have a Q with them, and slope off home in an almost embarrassed fashion.
And for when she comes back, the Nasonov glands work overtime to guide her home.

Now, either swarming or supercedure (the reason for a mating flight not preceded by a swarm a little more than a week before) implies a QC having been there before.

Mating flights don't always produce this behaviour, but they certainly do sometimes!

/// ADDED - if it was a mating flight, the princess would have emerged from her cell at minimum something like three days ago, and possibly up to about three weeks ago. So don't expect to find a QC with a neat hanging trapdoor - it could all have been cleaned up long ago! And, I wouldn't go poking around in the hive just yet, in case she is of a mind to have another fling tomorrow …
If it was a mating flight then you needn't worry about casts, this time round.
If it was a swarm that failed, you should have up to 8 days before the first new princess emerges (with a risk of casts thereafter), so no harm in holding off looking inside for at least a couple of days ...

 

[einsteinagogo]

I think you 100% definitely missed a QC on the 18th (if not before).

What your neighbour saw was either
- a failed swarm, when Q didn't join the cluster on the hedge
or
- a mating flight, when a princess leaves, sometimes some of the bees get entirely the wrong idea and 'swarm' after her. When she doesn't stop on a hedge or tree nearby, and heads off into the distance, looking for the boys, then the bees 'swarming' around the apiary realise they don't have a Q with them, and slope off home in an almost embarrassed fashion.
And for when she comes back, the Nasonov glands work overtime to guide her home.

Now, either swarming or supercedure (the reason for a mating flight not preceded by a swarm a little more than a week before) implies a QC having been there before.

Mating flights don't always produce this behaviour, but they certainly do sometimes!

/// ADDED - if it was a mating flight, the princess would have emerged from her cell at minimum something like three days ago, and possibly up to about three weeks ago. So don't expect to find a QC with a neat hanging trapdoor - it could all have been cleaned up long ago! And, I wouldn't go poking around in the hive just yet, in case she is of a mind to have another fling tomorrow …
If it was a mating flight then you needn't worry about casts, this time round.
If it was a swarm that failed, you should have up to 8 days before the first new princess emerges (with a risk of casts thereafter), so no harm in holding off looking inside for at least a couple of days ...

Thanks, for the detailed response.

Okay, I'll inspect Sat/Sun, it's typical I've been reading, reading and practicing A/S with brood boxes and floors, getting read to do an A/S, and becoming familair with the practice, made up new brood frames last night, with foundation, got bb ready to go!

and miss a QC! argh!

We live and learn by our experiences.

Thanks again most helpful.

 

[enrico]

Queen cells are so easy to miss. Look down each side, as well as the bottom, and in any crevice. If you are not happy then shake some bees off or breath onto the area you cannot see, the bees will move aside.
E

 

[pargyle]

Doesn't this thread just send shudders up every new beekeepers spine .... I'm looking at nearly 17 seams of bees in my hive at present and it's May 1st next week ... quick inspection due tomorrow (if it's fine and dry) last one was on 14th April ... keeping ahead of them with space and ready if I need to AS ... still feels like I'm playing Russian roulette with them though !!

 

[Erichalfbee]

To add to the angst.......I once had a colony swarm well before first QC was sealed.

 

[beeno]

Hi Einsteinagogo,
I am with itma on this one definitely an aborted swarm attempt witnessed. I would have thought they went again same day - sorry. I have witnessed a lot of Nasanov fanning in connection with swarming. Trying to entice as many as possible to stay, I guess.

 

[einsteinagogo]

Thanks all, it's all part of the learning experience. Still plenty of foragers, brood on 8 frames, 3 frames of stores, on two supers, will add another super.

Today, I went through the colony very carefully, and found a few play cups, two charged queen cells with larva/jelly, and two sealed queen cells.

I selected the best queen cell, on a bottom frame, (the other was on the side), marked with drawing pin, cut out all the other queen cells and play cups.

and I'll wait and be patient. (and see what happnes).

 

[itma]

Thanks all, it's all part of the learning experience. Still plenty of foragers, brood on 8 frames, 3 frames of stores, on two supers, will add another super.

Today, I went through the colony very carefully, and found a few play cups, two charged queen cells with larva/jelly, and two sealed queen cells.

I selected the best queen cell, on a bottom frame, (the other was on the side), marked with drawing pin, cut out all the other queen cells and play cups.

and I'll wait and be patient. (and see what happnes).

I'm slightly concerned about the things that you don't say in that post.

You don't say whether or not you saw Q.
Or eggs (indicating that she was there within the last 3 days).
Selecting a QC to keep (and no other action) would be appropriate IF no Q seen and no eggs - indicating that she's gone.




If that were the case, then continuing on that track, you don't say that you selected the best OPEN cell … !

Working on the basis that you did, you have at least 8 days before the princess emerges.
During that time, like 5 or 6 days from now, you would need to go through the hive again, and remove ALL bonus emergency QCs that they may have created.
To be sure that you don't miss one (or more), you need to shake the frames sufficiently clear of bees that you can see the comb unobstructed by bees.
The sole exception being your marked QC frame. Brush that one free of bees, don't shake it - that is harmful to QCs.
In fact, checking up on your chosen one BEFORE shaking any other frame is the way to do it, to let you see that it was going to plan … just in case you needed to revise those plans!
If you don't cull the emergency cells, you will lose 'cast' swarms. And you need to do it before the chosen princess emerges. If you chose a sealed cell, you have less than 8 days - it was probably sealed no more than 24 hours before the attempted swarm was seen, so you do have some idea of the time window you have for this essential work.


The time for being patient (and not messing with the hive) is the first few weeks AFTER the princess emerges. When you notice lots of pollen going in (or still not much and its a month after she was due to emerge) then it is appropriate to investigate inside the hive.

 

[einsteinagogo]

Thanks for the reply, I abbreivated my previous post.

no queen, or eggs seen, so I selected the Best Queen Cell, and I understand inspections not over, and again to go through the colony, and check for any other queen cells, and also check on progress of the one I marked in the next few days.

and then leave well alone, for virgin queen to be mated, and start to lay.

 

[jd101k2000]

I sympathise - Last Monday (21st) I did an inspection - quite a few play cups, no charged or even polished cells. I'm away tomorrow, so did an inspection today (28th). 6 sealed QC a few unsealed but well developed... as well as play cups. The sealed cells were in obvious places, so I would not have missed them at last inspection. They must have thought, after my previous inspection... huh, let's go and pack for our holidays.

Did not see queen, but fairly sure they had not swarmed. And earlier in the day they had been very busy bringing in pollen, etc. Grrhhh
Fortunately I had lots of equipment ready to split them into.

 

[einsteinagogo]

I sympathise - Last Monday (21st) I did an inspection - quite a few play cups, no charged or even polished cells. I'm away tomorrow, so did an inspection today (28th). 6 sealed QC a few unsealed but well developed... as well as play cups. The sealed cells were in obvious places, so I would not have missed them at last inspection. They must have thought, after my previous inspection... huh, let's go and pack for our holidays.

Did not see queen, but fairly sure they had not swarmed. And earlier in the day they had been very busy bringing in pollen, etc. Grrhhh
Fortunately I had lots of equipment ready to split them into.

Hey Thanks, no worries, it's all part of the experience, and rather funny because the price have honey as just risen in the hamlet for this year!

That's what my neighbours have said, I suppose will have to pay more now then!

and also the call out from the majority of neighbours, stating - I think we got your bees, only to find mason bees going into the walls of their houses - bless them!

Thanks....

 

[BeeJayBee]

and also the call out from the majority of neighbours, stating - I think we got your bees, only to find mason bees going into the walls of their houses - bless them!

Got called to a neighbours house the other day, to rescue one of our bees from their kitchen. Turned out to be a big fat queen bumble!

 

[Midland Beek]

no queen, or eggs seen, so I selected the Best Queen Cell, and I understand inspections not over, and again to go through the colony, and check for any other queen cells, and also check on progress of the one I marked in the next few days.

You seem to know what you are doing. Bees do not like all of their eggs in one basket, so to speak, which means that if you destroy all queen cells except one or two they will typically raise emergency queen cells using any larvae not older than three days. The best advice is to go through the colony again and destroy subsequent emergency queen cells ... leaving the 'proper' queen cell you chose in the first place. You want this 'proper' queen to head your colony and not to leave with a second swarm.

 

[einsteinagogo]

okay, so last inspected on the 26th, and was due to inspect again to check on any other queen cells, I'd missed, today has been my 2nd (second) abandoned attempt at inspecting, working on the theory, of damn the weather, I need to inspect and get on with it, I tried on Monday 28th, temp was 14 degrees C, bees flying well, overcast, with light wind, bees had changed, very agreesive, pinging my veil, all over my suit at back and front, and after checking 3 frames (shaking/brusing bees off) - I had to close up, I could not see the frames for bees in front of my viel. I'd not treated them any differently, was not wearing any different perfume, not a fun experience.

Today, weather was overcast and 15 degrees C, no sun, and again they were at me, before I opened up the hive, this time I tried to check the remaining frames, I did not check, got two frames in, and agressiveness. So again, lost confidence, and abandoned and closed up.

and the bees followed me back 100m to the house, and hung around outside the porch waiting for me! (as soon as the OSR is over, I think these will be moved to the Out Apiary, nice having them in the garden, but not when I cannot get out of the house!)

So I'll wait for better weaher, ans sunshine and warmth, and see if they get better. Tomorrow, is 1 week since they swarmed.

 

[einsteinagogo]

You seem to know what you are doing. Bees do not like all of their eggs in one basket, so to speak, which means that if you destroy all queen cells except one or two they will typically raise emergency queen cells using any larvae not older than three days. The best advice is to go through the colony again and destroy subsequent emergency queen cells ... leaving the 'proper' queen cell you chose in the first place. You want this 'proper' queen to head your colony and not to leave with a second swarm.

thanks

well learning.....