Gripping power

[REDWOOD]

Our coach builders maintained that a screw driver was for screw removal only! A hammer was the tool for setting them
VM

My father in law is a retired carpenter and he use to pre drill, hammer the screws half way and then tighten with a screwdriver, to much science for me, although he thinks the national hive is too complicated and won't attempt to make them, Although hes quick enough to tell me where I went wrong, dam critics lol

 

[victor meldrew]

I made my first hives at work , joiner said too many joints offering too many grain ends to the elements . designed by somebody with too much time on his hands !
Vm

 

[REDWOOD]

Do you think with modern materials, glues and fixings the national could be built differently and easier and even specially made fixings and hardware. perhaps we should let those Ikea guys design it with a 25 year warranty not to fall apart lol

 

[tonybloke]

Do you think with modern materials, glues and fixings the national could be built differently and easier and even specially made fixings and hardware. perhaps we should let those Ikea guys design it with a 25 year warranty not to fall apart lol

yep, it's called a 'commercial' hive

 

[The Apprentices]

Hi All just wondering with all the different types of screws on the market what has the best gripping power. I use plaster board screws and they seem to hold very well.

Here is what I use.

When your using these torx headed flooring screws by Spax drill a small pilot hole slightly smaller than the shank of the screw and also drill a countersink, a countersink is very important because without one the tapered underside of the head has to compress the fibres to create one, this tends to open the grain which creates a split for the weather to enter, defeating the aim of the joint.

Take the greatest of care in plywood where end grain is concerned so there is no splitting of the laminations and finish off tightening the screw by hand so you can see and feel the pulling together, then you don't tear the fibres out of their bed and can remove and replace the screw afterwards quite a few times if you need to.

The plain shank between the hold-fasts pull the two halfs of timber together without any hindrance or particles between that which a normal screw without a pilot hole raises in the gap, try it and remove the screw to see the raised area with a fully threaded standard screw.

I know this is a fastner topic but the next best item are concreted nails which get damp and swell and glue themselves in place afterwards.

If tha wants a quality job buy quality.

 

[The Apprentices]

Do you think with modern materials, glues and fixings the national could be built differently and easier and even specially made fixings and hardware. per haps we should let those Ikea guys design it with a 25 year warranty not to fall apart lol

What has happened is the life skills have diminished and the knowledge with them, if your using ply, bar far the better joint is a dovetail, I have show hundreds of people to do this over the years, no nail or screws needed if they are a good fit, as the timber swells they tighten as the timber dries they relax and the girls inside cement up the tiny gaps.

If your painting the boxes this seals the end grain.

The old ways are by far the best.

 

[REDWOOD]

skills are fast diminishing in this country and once gone they are forgotten. We have apprentices in my works (mechanics) and the are not taught in collages how to cut threads let alone what a tap set is.
I was told a couple of years ago that stone masons from India repair our castles and cathedrals as the masonry trade in this country is dead.
As for beehives I was thinking more towards a click and snap together design using specially designed fixing system. might be a good project for school design technology classes and get some out of the box thinking (excuse the pun) and wake up a few brain cells and even a national competition. Perhaps the BBKA or the WBKA can fund this or even some of the big beekeeping suppliers.

 

[The Cumbrian]

I was told a couple of years ago that stone masons from India repair our castles and cathedrals as the masonry trade in this country is dead.

Not quite correct my mates son is a stone mason and has worked on various cathedrals and Highgrove.

 

[REDWOOD]

Not quite correct my mates son is a stone mason and has worked on various cathedrals and Highgrove.

Sorry I must have been misinformed, good to see It is still alive

 

[Alabamaeee]

skills are fast diminishing in this country and once gone they are forgotten.


As for beehives I was thinking more towards a click and snap together design using specially designed fixing system. might be a good project for school design technology classes and get some out of the box thinking (excuse the pun) and wake up a few brain cells and even a national competition.

They already exist but they are made of polystyrene, takes about 5 minutes to assemble a super

 

[oliver90owner]

he use to pre drill, hammer the screws half way and then tighten with a screwdriver

Think about it. The old slotted screws always had a bare shank. There was absolutly no point in screwing it in all the way - wasted time and effort - not to mention potential damage to the slot in the screw head. A simple reason for those chippies doing it that way. Some, of course, drove them in a little too far to save some screwing effort.

The screws shown above by the apprentice is obviously not a 'clamping screw - it needs cramping tight before fixing. Think about it. Same as common screws threaded all the way along the shank.

 

[The Apprentices]

he use to pre drill, hammer the screws half way and then tighten with a screwdriver

Think about it. The old slotted screws always had a bare shank. There was absolutly no point in screwing it in all the way - wasted time and effort - not to mention potential damage to the slot in the screw head. A simple reason for those chippies doing it that way. Some, of course, drove them in a little too far to save some screwing effort.

The screws shown above by the apprentice is obviously not a 'clamping screw - it needs cramping tight before fixing. Think about it. Same as common screws threaded all the way along the shank.

Your nearly right as a fairly old self taught chippie now cabinet maker/turner, I can explain.

The standard slotted screw is still very much alive today, the purpous of drilling a pilot hole is done for several reasons.

1. To secure the screw in position prior to tightening so it doesn't wobble about, only half of it is showing remember the plain shank does not fasten, only guides and alignes as the top plain part of the shank tapers and fills the pilot made so there are no gaps, these screws and this method will out perform a fully helixed screw all day long.

2. When the pilot hole is drilled the size is the same as the shank or slightly smaller, this HAS to be removed otherwise the timber cannot be compressed and it will split the outer layer of timber ruining the job and letting in water that will one day freeze and the ice will open the gap even further.
Tearing also occurs at the mating surfaces of the two halves of timber when you don't drill a pilot hole and simply screw a fully helixed screw into place with a cordless.

When the old boys knocked the screws in they only did so until the helix of the screw touched the solid timber at the bottom of the pilot hole and no further, good ones that is.

They also used the cordless of their day the Yankee screwdrivers which I still use, they give a positive automatic downwards pressure securing the machine cut bit which fits the slot perfectly to prevent slippage, a good hand can keep up with a cordless once everything is prepared, I kid you not, a single push on bee box sized screws and its done.

Today we have specialist double pilotting come countersink bits that do the whole process in one go, really good ones can be obtained from a company called "Winzer Wurth" and are worth every penny.

On the decking screws I mentioned earlier you are spot on they need to be clamped first for making boxes and give the best result by far, no glue needed, In their decking roll the clamping is done by the person standing on top of them.

If you look at many of the better screwed Warres systems for sale they also have a slight rebate along two ends to keep things square this is a quality joint and as good as a box comb joint found on most other flat pack retail items, in some ways better because any water entering the joint is chanelled away along the rebate, a really old tried and tested model, and great for bee hives.

The cost of the machinery for making things like this is what makes them expensive, though as we head through and further into this depression, manufacturing techniques will need to change if we are to keep our industry alive and save money, and I have the answers of how to do it.

 

[oliver90owner]

they also have a slight rebate along two ends to keep things square

It also means a closed joint all the way down - even if there are imperfections on either of the two component parts. Common chippy practice; good appearance on the visible faces with any lesser finish covered and out of sight. If any slight out of square is found on the cross cut timber, a filler strip in the rebate will space it square; again out of sight but joint is still closed.

The older designs of sash window frames were, IMO, designed that way for covering any defects and allowing shrinkage/expansion to occur without binding up the operation of the window. More comlex than modern designs for a machined timber product, but very well thought out.

 

[REDWOOD]

Can you guys tell me why the open grain ends of a national are left and right and not up and down where I would have put them ?

 

[The Cumbrian]

I don't have a definitive answer but my theory would be this. With the grain running vertically in a side it will be weaker and more likely to split along the grain. With the fibres running horizontally and fixed at both ends the wood is less likely to split.

 

[The Apprentices]

they also have a slight rebate along two ends to keep things square

It also means a closed joint all the way down - even if there are imperfections on either of the two component parts. Common chippy practice; good appearance on the visible faces with any lesser finish covered and out of sight. If any slight out of square is found on the cross cut timber, a filler strip in the rebate will space it square; again out of sight but joint is still closed.

The older designs of sash window frames were, IMO, designed that way for covering any defects and allowing shrinkage/expansion to occur without binding up the operation of the window. More comlex than modern designs for a machined timber product, but very well thought out.

I agree, sash windows are a work of art, we used to manufacture every part from virgin timber.
Hopefully one day people will see scence and use again what is a fully repairable and sustainable engineering marvel, the ones we made will still be around in 2100 and beyond.

 

[The Apprentices]

I don't have a definitive answer but my theory would be this. With the grain running vertically in a side it will be weaker and more likely to split along the grain. With the fibres running horizontally and fixed at both ends the wood is less likely to split.

Correct

Its also down to machining basically, vertically the end grain would break out during processing.

The very best joint is a bevelled edged dovetail because it pulls itself together and can be taken apart again no glue needed.

Or better still for plywood by using a stepped rebated joint which I'm using on my next project which is easy to perform with a router, no nails needed only resin based cascamite type waterproof glue, no joints showing and very strong all interlocking in all directions, double sealed.

 

[REDWOOD]

Or better still for plywood by using a stepped rebated joint which I'm using on my next project which is easy to perform with a router, no nails needed only resin based cascamite type waterproof glue, no joints showing and very strong all interlocking in all directions, double sealed.

Can you give me a drawing of this please

 

[Alabamaeee]

Some great info here on types of screw etc, but what is the recommended diameter of screw (or screw size number) for assembling a standard national cedar hive?

 

[The Apprentices]

Or better still for plywood by using a stepped rebated joint which I'm using on my next project which is easy to perform with a router, no nails needed only resin based cascamite type waterproof glue, no joints showing and very strong all interlocking in all directions, double sealed.

Can you give me a drawing of this please

When I make the next swarm box I will post some pictures.

Or I can try to explain now.

If your using say 20.00mm PSE redwood off the self, half the thickness and set your router so it cuts out on two of the boards only a corner section to the outer edge.
Then on the remaining boards set the router to cut a groove the same depth 10.00mm in from the edge.

Then glue the first boards into the second process so all edges/ ends form the outside corner, this gives a joint with 4 mating surfaces and very strong and water tight without any nails.

If your making nationals you can incorporate the two extended frame ledges into the joints so everything simply slots together all out of plywood.
Keeps the water at bay from the open laminations, super quick and very strong.

There is also another two ways to do it quicker but I'm going to copyrite those ones first, I never seen it done in any books before, I have it all written out in DXF ready for CNC so there is next to no waste out of a 2.5 commercial sheet, drain holes are also incorporated into the jigs.

To glue and hold everything together while the glue sets all you need is a single ratchet strap which also comes supplied with the glue, just mixed with water and go.