Grafted cells - burr/drawn comb

[B+.]

As someone who breeds bees as opposed to simply rearing queens, I am quite intrigued by the above allegations and incidentally we have enough control freaks without generating more.
Propaganda and politics are once again coming to the fore and co-operation and good will amongst bee keeping bodies is disappearing.
I will not contribute to that by going into further detail, but with respect, may one suggest you look deeper before coming to a conclusion and ignore the instant experts.

May I ask how you control your breeding?

 

[Quis Custodiet]

My apologies, I completely missed your above post and only just came across it when looking for Blessed Millets boots. He had left them on top of the post so I was unable to see it.
Beebreeding is a trifle tricky in Ireland. We have FIBKA, UBKA, INIB, Buckfast Beekeepers Association, Irish Native honey bee Association and "Deh Min from Deh Departmint" who by their own standards are well educated (they knew someone who could read and write) and very capable ( they very selectively enforce ambiguous EU legislation. Protestants first and then Polish beekeepers).
There is little doubt but that the Native Bee fraternity are playing for control.They cannot or will not supply queens or nucs, but are doing everything in their power to stop someone who wants bees from importing them. This is sad, there is room enough here for everyone and good wiil would make such a difference.
There is also much hypocrisy, it has long been claimed that a pivotal member of the Native Bee Society was supplying bees that were not very native! This year one of his nucs arrived near the border and we went down and had a look, their physical characteristics and behaviour were that of a Carniolan cross, remarkably they were quiet bees. The Native Bee Society has to be aware of what is happening, it is scarcely surprising they will not publish DNA verification of purity. FIBKA is loosing ground and spends it's time trying to undermine others instead of striding out with innovative initiatives of it's own.
Holidays on the Baltic Islands and tea with Mr Schley are such a welcome respites.

 

[foghornleghorn]

My apologies, I completely missed your above post and only just came across it when looking for Blessed Millets boots. He had left them on top of the post so I was unable to see it.
Beebreeding is a trifle tricky in Ireland. We have FIBKA, UBKA, INIB, Buckfast Beekeepers Association, Irish Native honey bee Association and "Deh Min from Deh Departmint" who by their own standards are well educated (they knew someone who could read and write) and very capable ( they very selectively enforce ambiguous EU legislation. Protestants first and then Polish beekeepers).
There is little doubt but that the Native Bee fraternity are playing for control.They cannot or will not supply queens or nucs, but are doing everything in their power to stop someone who wants bees from importing them. This is sad, there is room enough here for everyone and good wiil would make such a difference.
There is also much hypocrisy, it has long been claimed that a pivotal member of the Native Bee Society was supplying bees that were not very native! This year one of his nucs arrived near the border and we went down and had a look, their physical characteristics and behaviour were that of a Carniolan cross, remarkably they were quiet bees. The Native Bee Society has to be aware of what is happening, it is scarcely surprising they will not publish DNA verification of purity. FIBKA is loosing ground and spends it's time trying to undermine others instead of striding out with innovative initiatives of it's own.
Holidays on the Baltic Islands and tea with Mr Schley are such a welcome respites.

Is that person supply the carnie crosses doing it full time?

 

[Quis Custodiet]

Is that person supply the carnie crosses doing it full time?

My understanding is that he operates on a relatively large scale. There are not, as far as I am aware, any full time bee breeders in Southern Ireland. The individual concerned may well also be selling native or near native AMM, I do not know.
But I do know that the Irish Native Honeybee Society is gaining a stranglehold on bee breeding. In the not too distant future they will have a monopoly on queen supply and imports will be banned. FIBKA is supposed to represent the interests of ALL beekeepers, it would be reassuring to see them making an effort to do so. I have no objection to AMM being promoted and bred, the sub-species has many desirable qualities. But it is inferior in temperament and honey production when compared to Buckfasts and Carniolans.

 

[Truble]

I have no objection to AMM being promoted and bred, the sub-species has many desirable qualities. But it is inferior in temperament and honey production when compared to Buckfasts and Carniolans.

Interesting.
I "acquired" a couple of Irish Amm queens a few years back. They were nice and gentle bees to work with, classic white cappings (as has been described by many). One queen easily filled a double brood box (one didn't!), but I was very disappointed in their honey production, in comparison with Buckfast colonies of comparable size in the same apiary. Also they were/are very prone to chalk brood, at least the ones I have are, as are her daughters. So figure it's genetic.
Any offers?

 

[foghornleghorn]

My understanding is that he operates on a relatively large scale. There are not, as far as I am aware, any full time bee breeders in Southern Ireland. The individual concerned may well also be selling native or near native AMM, I do not know.
But I do know that the Irish Native Honeybee Society is gaining a stranglehold on bee breeding. In the not too distant future they will have a monopoly on queen supply and imports will be banned. FIBKA is supposed to represent the interests of ALL beekeepers, it would be reassuring to see them making an effort to do so. I have no objection to AMM being promoted and bred, the sub-species has many desirable qualities. But it is inferior in temperament and honey production when compared to Buckfasts and Carniolans.

Think I might have got a few queens of the person in question, definitely had a bit of something else in them but highly variable...
I would think that whatever bit of improvement or selection that has occurred by now will have plateaued with regards to improvements and the only way going forward would be to set up a closed population like b+'s breeding, imports wouldn't make a difference to them then only undermine sales, is it because of nihbs that the dept of ag are so annoying even when all conditions are met?

 

[Quis Custodiet]

Interesting.
I "acquired" a couple of Irish Amm queens...........

Your experience seems to be quite typical, Amm queens are very variable. They can produce a surplus, but other bees consistently produce bigger crops.

Think I might have got a few queens of the person in .................?

Perhaps you have, but many Amm suppliers are breeding from cross bred stock. The individual in question was singled out because he is a very prominent member of the Native Honey bee Society and it beggars belief that that his activities are not known to them. It is curious, that Society will not publish results of DNA analysis for any of it's breeders, neither will it agree to a trial of AMM and Buckfast bees, so draw your own conclusions.

There are undoubtedly some decent, honest, well meaning people and some very able beekeepers who are members of the Native Bee group. But in the main it is a Messianic Society; we are right and all others are wrong and must be put to the sword, no bees to be imported, persecute all who attempt to do so.
You are probably correct in assuming that "Deh min from deh departmint" have been lobbied by the Native Bee Society. It would be their first port of call in seeking to have those who fail to agree with them intimidated. What a very disturbing attitude and ultimately counterproductive. Better by far to acknowledge that AMM is not capable of any significant improvement, if it was it would be apparent by now.

If anyone can show that my views are inaccurate or misleading I would be pleased to politely discuss the matter. One other issue, on a number of occasions threats have been made to burn hives belonging to buckfast bee owners, The Native Honey bee Society has never, to the best of my knowledge, condemned this behaviour.

 

[Truble]

I'm sure they have there uses. Not all beekeepers like large crops of honey or bees that fill a couple of brood boxes. I think as one ages the appeal for smaller boxes of bees might increase.
Your Irish Native bees society reminds me of a lot of our Yorkshire Beekeepers and their obsession with local mongrel bees. Mention of Buckfast constitutes fighting talk.
If you are interested in comparisons between bees have a look at this paper.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Your experience seems to be quite typical, Amm queens are very variable. They can produce a surplus, but other bees consistently produce bigger crops.
.

quite the opposite I've found, the darker bees consistently produce - even in bad weather seasons, the surplus may not be as big in general but on average over a period of years they are constant as they can outstrip the modern hybrids when the sun don't come out so often.

 

[Teemore]

Just highlighting a few points from earlier posts:
“There is little doubt but that the Native Bee fraternity are playing for control.They cannot or will not supply queens or nucs, but are doing everything in their power to stop someone who wants bees from importing them. This is sad, there is room enough here for everyone and good wiil would make such a difference.”
and
“But I do know that the Irish Native Honeybee Society is gaining a stranglehold on bee breeding. In the not too distant future they will have a monopoly on queen supply and imports will be banned.”
Very contradictory statements.
Demand for honeybees amongst beginners and hobby beekeepers significantly outstrips supply. This creates problems as people who desperately want to have bees then buy in bees from outside Ireland. A bit of Google led research suggests that people who sell bees and queens in Ireland maintain a waiting list annually.
“One other issue, on a number of occasions threats have been made to burn hives belonging to buckfast bee owners,”
Was this due to AFB? It is a notifiable disease in NI and infected stocks must be destroyed. I have actually spoken to people who treat formal inspections by the Bee Inspectors as being a threat to their bees. Many would fight tooth and nail to stop colonies being destroyed when AFB has been confirmed or even to dodge inspections. Some go to the extent of “hiding” colonies. It is estimated that there are perhaps 1600 beekeepers in Northern Ireland who are members of beekeeping associations and another 600 or so who do not belong to any association at all. With the best will in the world, some of these should only be described as bee havers rather than bee keepers. They keep putting swarms into old hives, onto old comb and wonder why the bees die every winter. Disease maps for NI give you a good indication where some of them hang out.
If memory serves me correctly, FIBKA and UBKA acknowledge that importing bees creates a big pest and disease risk and so with good will, they discourage imports.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

Just highlighting a few points from earlier posts:...........
.

Thank you for your reply and I fully agree with your comments on disease. In the case of AFB; destruction of colony and frames combined with sterilisation of the hive body is the only effective means of eradication.
Beekeeping is fashionable at this time and demand does, as you say, exceed supply. This has led to newcomers being exploited by unscrupulous vendors, many of them identified with the Native honey bee society. Sad and a poor reflection on those individuals who are involved in what is a scam.
When I referred to threats to burn hives belonging to Buckfast Bee owners, these were threats to maliciously destroy by burning healthy hives. The owners only "crime" was to keep a type of bees not approved of by zealots. Anyone who regards that type of behaviour as acceptable needs help and needs it quite badly.
You mention UBKA and FIBKA. In another thread relating to some very promising lectures in Cork, an individual has been named as President of FIBKA. Slight problem......not only has he not been elected, but someone else is still in office. He may well be the "heir apparent", but to describe him as being President of FIBKA at an event next year is at best very unethical and effectively undermines the moral authority of FIBKA.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

. Mention of Buckfast constitutes fighting talk...........

Do those Buckfast Beekeepers come from Lancashire! In days gone by, some family members got involved in a spat between Tockwith and Long Marston! I would think there is plenty of room for all beekeepers in Yorkshire.

 

[Teemore]

Have never come across threats of burning colonies of bees. Worst I have come across were thefts of hives from Killinchy's apiary and a Roe Valley beekeeper making a citizen's arrest in defence of a neighbour's bees...

Is your actual criticism of "unscrupulous vendors"? I can empathise with that. I am aware of a number of beginners who have fallen foul of people wishing to make a profit.

In another thread relating to some very promising lectures in Cork, an individual has been named as President of FIBKA. Slight problem......not only has he not been elected, but someone else is still in office. He may well be the "heir apparent", but to describe him as being President of FIBKA at an event next year is at best very unethical and effectively undermines the moral authority of FIBKA.

Sorry, you have lost me with that comment.