Grafted cells - burr/drawn comb

[tonel]

Wondering if anyone might have had this before - grafted some larvae into JZBZ cups and placed into a queenless cell raising hive a week ago. Larvae were checked a few days later, 8 out of 10 seemed to had been accepted. Today had a quick look and found that the bees had drawn comb down from two of the cells and started filling it with nectar. The other cells seemed to look more like lumps of burr comb than regular sculpted cells. Did have a look against the light and could see a dark patch where I'd expect the cell's contents to be (assuming/hoping cocoon?). All a bit unexpected - have only done this a few times before so pretty inexperienced but had more regular queen cell-shaped results in the past.

Has anyone had anything similar happen? Queenless nucs have been made up so thinking of just going with it and trying to cut away excess comb when it comes to distributing the cells but am a bit worried I might be wasting my time

 

[B+.]

Has anyone had anything similar happen? Queenless nucs have been made up so thinking of just going with it and trying to cut away excess comb when it comes to distributing the cells but am a bit worried I might be wasting my time

If there is a heavy nectar flow on and they have nowhere to put it, they draw brace comb between the cells.
So long as you don't hit the cell, it will be fine to cut them apart....be careful not to damage the tip where the queen emerges.

 

[Quis Custodiet]

It is called lacing. The tip of the cell will be left clear. If you are inspecting to see the contents, handle the cells with care until they are ripe. A frame of foundation at the side prevents / inhibits this type of comb building. B+ has identified the cause and told you how to deal with the situation. Good luck.

 

[Finman]

Once I had that way queen cell frame. I clipped queen cells off. Then later, when I extracted the graft comb, I noticed 3 more queen cells embedded inside the burr.

So, dangerous situation, if you leave caged queen cells into the same hive.

.

 

[Plenty of honey]

I've had this too. just looked at our third Batch this evening and their all ok but a fair bit of burr comb. I put them next to a frame of foundation but they still build on the cells a little. The burr comb does rub off. I use the JZBZ cups too. Ive always had this problem too. but in a early flow its often the case as the flow is just soo strong.
I am grafting again tomorrow on the second round and i expect their to be less because our flow has gone off.
and yes B+ very easy to damage a cell if your heavy handed, Handle them like eggs, every time!!

 

[B+.]

I use the JZBZ cups too. Ive always had this problem too.

Have you tried the Nicot cups Richard? They stand proud of the bar about an inch so any webbing would be nearer the base of the cell.

 

[tonel]

Thanks for the advice everyone. Cells due for distribution to nucs on Tuesday so will try my best to remove them and carefully cut away any big bits of comb. Have heard that there's some OSR being grown nearby so that might explain where all the nectar is coming from (we don't have much of it over here, and not often near where the bees are).

 

[Plenty of honey]

Have you tried the Nicot cups Richard? They stand proud of the bar about an inch so any webbing would be nearer the base of the cell.

Ha B+, you've got good reason and thank you! I believe your probably right!! As we speak were putting together some removable frames for grafting in with then Nicot system.
The problem of burr comb is one thing but the overall problem with jzbz for me is my bees seem to get a destructive as the cells near to ripening. I can't cage them at all with jzbz, but I still like to have at least 40 grafts or at least go for 40, so by moving one of the cell bars, it means I can cage all cells I get, the removed bar will go on to another frame immediately adjacent to it.

I have recently noticed that on day 9 or 10 my bees have a habit of removing the wax from the tip of the cell,which I believe is probably normal. Perhaps to help the rapidly developing queen underneath, emerge when she's ready . However sometimes I've found a few, aparantly good cells destroyed for no reason at that I can think of.
I don't know, if they know, that they have not developed properly inside the cell but yesterday I found a pale looking queen sticking out of a cell on day 9 with her tongue still licking, but she was too early to be born. Is this hygienic management by the bees or bees just being bored! No other hatched out queens anywhere and queen barrier all patient and not damaged.
We have two options, one to cage the cells on day 9 ish, or to move the lot to an incubator. This should get around the problem well and free up the cell builder fir a second round much quicker.
The Nicot system is used by a lot of breeders here and it is a really good system. I think it's design, although a little bigger in the base mount, may well help overall against the burr comb. It's also better I reckon because with jzbz you need to change cell bars as I find that after pushing in cell cups a few times the grove on each bar becomes too big. Perhaps using hardwood might stop this but it's another thing to make when your busy, but the Nicot system gets around this problem, which I like.
Will let you know how I get on!!

 

[Michael Palmer]

I've had this too. just looked at our third Batch this evening and their all ok but a fair bit of burr comb.

How is your cell bar frame constructed? Is it a modified standard frame? Those are too wide and violate bee space. A cell bar frame should be the same width as the cell bar...about 3/4". It helps.

 

[Plenty of honey]

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=13091&stc=1&d=1463947465

Mike, this is my current graft i harvested this morning. Its a standard frame bar, the same dimensions to all our other Dadant frames. I didn't have a problem like this last year. may be as the flow has stopped, i will see cleaner cells. Just grafted another round,this evening will let you know. but its interesting and i want to find out why.
They still had a frame of foundation next to the graft after they were closed on day 5, so i am looking at trying other options. will check bee space around current frame and see what i can find.
Thanks.

 

[B+.]

They still had a frame of foundation next to the graft after they were closed on day 5, so i am looking at trying other options. will check bee space around current frame and see what i can find.
Thanks.

How many cells do you usually put on each bar? I have 15 on each bar and 2 bars per frame but I only see 12 on yours. You have a lot of empty space on your frame with nowhere for the bees to cluster when they are feeding the larvae.
I don't put foundation next to the cells either as this creates a cold area with no cluster space for the nurse bees. Usually, there is enough space for fresh nectar in the cells of emerging bees but, I suppose, if nectar was coming in so fast that they had nowhere to store it, I might swap the outer most frame which is where they store their food anyway with an empty combn (overcrowding is one of the conditions you need to create)

 

[Plenty of honey]

How many cells do you usually put on each bar? I have 15 on each bar and 2 bars per frame but I only see 12 on yours. You have a lot of empty space on your frame with nowhere for the bees to cluster when they are feeding the larvae.
I don't put foundation next to the cells either as this creates a cold area with no cluster space for the nurse bees. Usually, there is enough space for fresh nectar in the cells of emerging bees but, I suppose, if nectar was coming in so fast that they had nowhere to store it, I might swap the outer most frame which is where they store their food anyway with an empty combn (overcrowding is one of the conditions you need to create)

Ok i see your point!! i used to put 15 per cell bar, with still the 4 bars, but i considered that even if the whole set up was packed with nurse bees, that many grafts might just bee too many, and the quality would suffer.
I only put in a frame after they have been closed on day 5, what i did was put a frame of foundation, in the brood box, but not next to the graft until after day 5. that way i figured it wouldn't be a cold space and i still had a little emerging brood on the opposite side to the pollen frame, so to attract bees to warm the brood. But to be honest, my hives are so overwhelmingly strong, their full of bees from the bottom of the super to the top of the brood box.
I think what i need to play around with it the size and width of frame.
I have a pic of Mikes frames. his are different again, he has 3 bars of 15, so even though Langsdroth frames are slightly shallower than Dadant, i think as well as going to the Nicot system i will build a three framed bar with 15 cells in other word, one line of cells under the top bar and two others underneath. It could just be my bees, these ones are less selected genetics, but i had a bad winter and suffered from Varroa and didn't have a cell building hives in the state i wanted them in the spring.

But hey thanks for you input, i am always interested in getting a better queen cell. we will get there!!
Heres a screen shot from a video i did. lots of bees clustering around the cells, but you can see i did have 15 per line last year. I wonder if thats causing the majority of problems?

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=13093&stc=1&d=1463989269

 

[Plenty of honey]

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=13131&stc=1&d=1464538430
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=13132&stc=1&d=1464538430

Been doing a bit of work and as i said were changing to the Nicot system ( for the time being to see how i get on with it.
I am hoping that the extended cells ( where they are on the frame) , might detract from as much burr comb. Also i have added bonus of being able to cage the cells on day 9 or 10 and i also hope this will take away the worry of one darling hatching out and trashing the lot if i am late in my harvest.
What hopefully will happen is two of the cell bars, (number two and number 4 bar) can be moved to another frame, thus leaving room for the hair roller cages.
I have spoken to Hivemaker about this and he reckons for him their a better system. He's bees very patient with my questions!!! thanks!! Potentially i could get more cells through as the ability to draw up cells could be more than the usual amount. Its the finishing. Now I realise this can be done on another strong colony, but above the excluder.
also we reduced the width of the cell bar, down to the width go the Nicot and we shall see if the makes any difference. I have castellations in my hives and i am removing two middle ones so i can squeeze the frames together, get them in nice and tight so the bees can cluster more easily. lots to try.

So will keep you updated on how it goes. Stocked another cell builder yesterday, so thats 3 we've got running now. Overall good results but its just refining it all to have a slicker, less stuttering operation. These things take time.
Thanks to everyone for your advice.

 

[Plenty of honey]

Good results. Heres a pic taken tonight, of cells ready next Tuesday. i am delighted, if i can keep this going it would be good. No burr comb, so all the help and advice seems to have paid off. Just the minor details of getting these mated!!
I cant be sure that the burr comb problem is cured but it seems better.
For me, the main bonus with the Nicot system is you can start more cells off on a really strong colony and very easily move them individually, to one or tow bars, then either finish them off elsewhere or in the same hive, as a finisher.
The ability to cage them speaks for itself.
I am not knocking JZBZ at all, it worked well for me all last year. Nicot seems to work better for me at the moment. It will be better still if we ever get an incubator, which with the cages is extremely flexible. Glad i have tried both though!!
oh, forgot to mention, this is actually two bars , two horizontal bars on each frame, so one frame stacked on another so i can cage them next week. so the lower bar cells look darker because theres no sun on them. Their not dark black lol

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=13201&stc=1&d=1465421890

 

[B+.]

It will be better still if we ever get an incubator, which with the cages is extremely flexible.

Well done Richard. That is a much better "take". The wax is a nicer colour too. I like to see nice clean wax as it shows that they are drawing lots of new wax.

I actually transfer the cells straight to the incubator as soon as they are sealed (I have a pretty big incubator though). That way, I am independent of the weather when it comes to harvesting the cells (day 8/9). It also means I can reuse the colony a bit earlier than if I'd allowed the colony to incubate the cells. Incidentally, you can rotate cell bars of different ages through your cell raising colony so long as you keep track of their age (I have a piece of grafting tape on the top of the cell bar with the graft number, date of graft and mother queen reference number)

Another advantage of emerging in the incubator is that you can mark them with opilath plates as soon as they emerge when their movements are much slower (https://youtu.be/qOFyf93q9gk). This gives you control over which queen came from which mother if you keep good records of batches.

 

[Plenty of honey]

Well done Richard. That is a much better "take". The wax is a nicer colour too. I like to see nice clean wax as it shows that they are drawing lots of new wax.

I actually transfer the cells straight to the incubator as soon as they are sealed (I have a pretty big incubator though). That way, I am independent of the weather when it comes to harvesting the cells (day 8/9). It also means I can reuse the colony a bit earlier than if I'd allowed the colony to incubate the cells. Incidentally, you can rotate cell bars of different ages through your cell raising colony so long as you keep track of their age (I have a piece of grafting tape on the top of the cell bar with the graft number, date of graft and mother queen reference number)

Another advantage of emerging in the incubator is that you can mark them with opilath plates as soon as they emerge when their movements are much slower (https://youtu.be/qOFyf93q9gk). This gives you control over which queen came from which mother if you keep good records of batches.

Thanks B+ and thanks for the tip, ok confession time, i didn't say that this was the result of a combining two cell builder frames.
I did two frames, and got one complete take, but if i only did one frame (four bars) it would get less ( i believe) for the extra 10 mins work after their accepted you can rearrange all the taken ones, so it has the wow factor, "cor your good", well, not that good, just able to jiggle it all around after acceptance. But isn't it lovely to be able to do that!!
I put two bars per frame after so i can cage them easily with one final reasonably quick intervention.
Yes incubator is on the cards for next year, big investment, but like you say, it will free up a cell builder quicker and give you more flexibility. Everyone who has one seems to say its an excellent, worthwhile purchase, not just an expensive toy!
Hivemaker gave me the tip to doing more initial grafts, so after you rearrange the take you can finish own other colonies, no problem.
I am learning all the time, great fun. I love grafting, challenging all the time. Trying to keep your breeder queens going well in flows and without, and the nice thing is, it can be done of an evening, so its not a major part of the day lost. I tend to make my set ups hopelessly queen less either the day before, or the morning of grafting day.
Better weather this week is helping a lot too!!
So whats your thoughts on putting this marking disk on her thorax before mating?? any signs of any problems at all if she's wearing that whilst out on her nuptial flights?
I imagine not, but I've marked virgins before mating and wondered if any of my intervention may have caused stress or " not touching her, she's been marked" is this imaginary rubbish, mixed with a bit of Jenkins Fairy dust? do you use a "chic" looking marking disk?? lol

 

[B+.]

So whats your thoughts on putting this marking disk on her thorax before mating?? any signs of any problems at all if she's wearing that whilst out on her nuptial flights?
I imagine not, but I've marked virgins before mating and wondered if any of my intervention may have caused stress or " not touching her, she's been marked" is this imaginary rubbish, mixed with a bit of Jenkins Fairy dust? do you use a "chic" looking marking disk?? lol

Maybe I'm a bit OCD about the whole area of control, but, I consider it essential to be able to track my queens all the way from emergence to testing and, potentially, use as a mother queen. This is the only way I know of that I can keep control of the pedigree.
I did have problems last year with the marking, but, I bought a couple of the German marking tools (dowels with entomology pins in either end) and I find it much easier to do now.
Most of my queens are instrumentally inseminated but I do open mate some too. They have no trouble at all if the disk is placed correctly. They are just the standard numbered opilath plates that any of the beekeeping suppliers sell. Fairy dust? I don't think so.You just have to get over the idea that you will damage the queen. You won't if you pick her up properly (by the thorax...not the abdomen).....like anything, confidence comes with practice

 

[foghornleghorn]

Maybe I'm a bit OCD about the whole area of control, but, I consider it essential to be able to track my queens all the way from emergence to testing and, potentially, use as a mother queen. This is the only way I know of that I can keep control of the pedigree.

Our 'breeders' over here seem to be running into trouble with inbreeding because they never controlled everything fully. They're looking for 20k to map the distribution of sex alleles now.

 

[B+.]

Our 'breeders' over here seem to be running into trouble with inbreeding because they never controlled everything fully. They're looking for 20k to map the distribution of sex alleles now.

This can happen if you use too small a gene pool

 

[Quis Custodiet]

Our 'breeders' over here seem to be running into trouble with inbreeding because they never controlled everything fully. They're looking for 20k to map the distribution of sex alleles now.

As someone who breeds bees as opposed to simply rearing queens, I am quite intrigued by the above allegations and incidentally we have enough control freaks without generating more.
Propaganda and politics are once again coming to the fore and co-operation and good will amongst bee keeping bodies is disappearing.
I will not contribute to that by going into further detail, but with respect, may one suggest you look deeper before coming to a conclusion and ignore the instant experts.