Frames without foundation

[Amaranth]

I recently saw a suggestion for using frames without foundation. Have never tried this. I understand it is better to alternate the foundationless frames, but what is used in between them? Does it need to be drawn comb in order to “guide” the building within the empty frame space?

Also was it on this forum that someone suggested using bamboo skewers as a guide?

 

[Anduril]

You could use lolly sticks coated in wax or 1 inch strips of foundation and the bamboo skewers are used to strengthen the frame. You can use drawn comb around the foundationless frames or have the hive perfectly level and let the bees draw out the comb.

 

[Swarm]

I recently saw a suggestion for using frames without foundation. Have never tried this. I understand it is better to alternate the foundationless frames, but what is used in between them? Does it need to be drawn comb in order to “guide” the building within the empty frame space?

Also was it on this forum that someone suggested using bamboo skewers as a guide?

I found it easier to get nice, straight combs by fitting between drawn combs. I have some with bamboo skewers for support or you can use fishing line.

 

[Boston Bees]

My advice would be not to be tempted to try having no support at all (i.e. just a starter strip and nothing else - no bamboo skewers, or fishing line etc). Without support, the comb is just too fragile to be fun to inspect.

(Bamboo skewers or fishing wire aren't really a guide - they are there to support the comb)

And yes, put the foundationless frames inbetween frames which are not foundationless to get them drawn straight.

 

[user 20798]

There are several blog postings and instructions on 'The Apiarist' website, more than enough detail to guide you.

 

[madasafish]

My advice would be not to be tempted to try having no support at all (i.e. just a starter strip and nothing else - no bamboo skewers, or fishing line etc). Without support, the comb is just too fragile to be fun to inspect.

(Bamboo skewers or fishing wire aren't really a guide - they are there to support the comb)

And yes, put the foundationless frames inbetween frames which are not foundationless to get them drawn straight.

When inspecting frames with no support at all, if you try to hold the frame anything but vertical - and the wax is warm - you will see bowing of the wax followed by the breaking of same wax and landing on the ground.
Been there, done that.

 

[Amaranth]

Thanks all.

 

[Boston Bees]

When inspecting frames with no support at all, if you try to hold the frame anything but vertical - and the wax is warm - you will see bowing of the wax followed by the breaking of same wax and landing on the ground.
Been there, done that.

Oh yes.

Oooh, is that the queen? ..... oh .... damn ... "splat"

In addition, in winter, even a vertically held frame can split from the top bar if given the briefest vertical jolt

 

[Erichalfbee]

Mine are alternated with drawn comb. They are 14x12 and reinforced with fishing line

 

[Boston Bees]

Mine are alternated with drawn comb. They are 14x12 and reinforced with fishing line

Is there any drilling and eyelets involved? Could you share the technique please?

 

[Bazzer]

My foundationless frames look like this - I use ss wire so that I can pass a current through to remove it if I want to make cut-comb. The small triangle of foundation encourages them to start drawing brood comb and is much easier to get straight than a strip - can get lots of triangles from a single sheet cut at 60 degree angles. The bees appear to draw along the wires well and so if the box is level I can get straight comb without interleaving

 

[Bazzer]

The wire is a single strand that goes through eyelets on the side bars and round a nail in the top bar - I use small screws to secure the ends so easy to tighten or replace

 

[E&MBees]

Mine are alternated with drawn comb. They are 14x12 and reinforced with fishing line

What thickness of fishing line do you use?

 

[Swarm]

What thickness of fishing line do you use?

15 lbs breaking strain should be OK.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Funnily enough, when I first turned up at the orphanage in Lesotho I discovered that the Langstroth hives they had been gifted had been put out amongst the peach trees in the orchard or out in outlying gardens. They had put all the wired frames in but there was no foundation or starter strips in there, also, the Hoffman frames were European 36mm spacings! Six of the hives had been colonised by swarms and the bees had followed the grooves in the top bars and drawn perfectly spaced comb all the way to the bottom bars, apart from one hive way up in the hills where the bees had dutifully followed the grooves until, six inches from the sidebar on one end they had hung a right and bent over towards the neighbouring frame.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Is there any drilling and eyelets involved? Could you share the technique please?

Yes two holes drilled in each side bar. Thick nylon tied at one end, fed through to the other side from the inside, round the side bar and back through the same hole to emerge on the inside again then on to the side you started, repeat and tie off

 

[Erichalfbee]

My foundationless frames look like this - I use ss wire so that I can pass a current through to remove it if I want to make cut-comb. The small triangle of foundation encourages them to start drawing brood comb and is much easier to get straight than a strip - can get lots of triangles from a single sheet cut at 60 degree angles. The bees appear to draw along the wires well and so if the box is level I can get straight comb without interleaving


View attachment 30145

Interesting. I find with starter strips they often start in a couple of places and join them

 

[Bazzer]

Interesting. I find with starter strips they often start in a couple of places and join them

They probably need an edge to get started so having a triangle extends the length available to them in the centre of the frame

 

[Parsonage Bees]

I found when alternating foundationless and drawn frames in a super they can tend to make the drawn frame thicker. I guess it's easier. Not a problem you just uncap the frame flat. They start the foundationless frame, they can complete it next year. You end up with this.

 

[W0otz]

Bamboo skewers to reinforce and lolly sticks as a starter guide as worked for me. I've only got them drawn between other already-drawn combs though. They start in each "section" between the skewers, and you have to be very careful at this point, but once they've incorporated the skewers they can be held horizontally with no problems (so far...). Just make sure the hive is level as they're guided by gravity rather than foundation.