frameless box to framed box

[David1976]

The offer- a hive full of bees for free if I would like to uplift it.

The issue - this was a swarm that moved into a brood box 2 years and has not been touched. There are no frames and the natural comb has glued the roof to the box to the floor.

What would be the best way to transfer the bees in this to a new hive with fresh foundation (and maybe a couple of old drawn combs) because if I just lift the roof off, it's going to fall in and crush bees.

Cheers

 

[Erichalfbee]

Turn it upside down carefully and put your new box on top. You’ll have to create an entrance between the two boxes. QX with a slot cut out for drones once the queen is up.

 

[Ian123]

Bee quick is useful to drive them out of boxes like that. Simply put over a new box with a frame of brood and drive them down. Once you’ve pulled the floor off of course. You can then deal with any comb/brood worth saving, if all that’s a faff simple make up a crown board with a large centre cut out to place on old box and add new above the CB.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Turn it upside down carefully and put your new box on top. You’ll have to create an entrance between the two boxes. QX with a slot cut out for drones once the queen is up.

it also means you get them on to clean comb - bit like a Bailey change

 

[understanding_bees]

Turn it upside down carefully and put your new box on top. You’ll have to create an entrance between the two boxes. QX with a slot cut out for drones once the queen is up.

I am fascinated by the comment to “Turn it upside down”, and wonder at the reasoning behind this suggestion.

I know that bees construct their honeycomb cells on an angle, so that nectar and honey do not drain out of the cells. If the frames were inverted, then any stored honey could easily run out of uncapped cells, and the bees would be quick to catch it.

Would the bees then “automatically” move the honey to correctly oriented honeycomb? Would the bees abandon the incorrectly oriented honeycomb? – or would they reconstruct/rebuild it with cells which were correctly sloped?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I am fascinated by the comment to “Turn it upside down”, and wonder at the reasoning behind this suggestion.

I know that bees construct their honeycomb cells on an angle, so that nectar and honey do not drain out of the cells. If the frames were inverted, then any stored honey could easily run out of uncapped cells, and the bees would be quick to catch it.

Would the bees then “automatically” move the honey to correctly oriented honeycomb? Would the bees abandon the incorrectly oriented honeycomb? – or would they reconstruct/rebuild it with cells which were correctly sloped?

The reasoning is that if you have a box where the bees have made wild comb attached to the sides and the top you are never going to cut it out without causing carnage and probably death of the queen. You have to devise a way of getting the bees safely out. It's usually easier to slice the floor off.
I suppose you could put a new box underneath but it's guaranteed to get them to move and quicker to get the bees up onto new comb if you put it on the top.
What you do is put a drawn frame up, feed and wait for the queen to get up there and put in a QX. Once she is up there a small hole in the original container is useful for drones to get out.
As for what the bees do I have no idea. Brood won't fall out and neither will honey; nectar might but as you've pointed out the bees will clean it up. They do abandon the comb because they follow the queen.
I've done it with bees in a compost bin where the comb was attached to the lid and I've seen it done twice with a traffic cone

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I am fascinated by the comment to “Turn it upside down”, and wonder at the reasoning behind this suggestion.

As I said earlier in the thread - it's an induced Bailey change (look it up) the bees will continue to nurse the brood (which is what you'll mostly get with a newly moved in swarm) but will quickly move into the new top box and build comb on the frames/foundation, once it is brooded, you make sure the queen is up there, slot in a QX and leave the brood in the free comb emerge before removing it.
Pretty logical really - it's how Tom Seeley used to transfer the bees he'd caught in his swarm boxes way back when he started on his journey.
I once had a Demarree'd hive fall over after a stand was undermined. When I got to it a week later the bees had happily continued to draw QC's in there, but at 90° to the 'correct' orientation of the cells

 

[understanding_bees]

As I said earlier in the thread - it's an induced Bailey change (look it up) the bees will continue to nurse the brood (which is what you'll mostly get with a newly moved in swarm) but will quickly move into the new top box and build comb on the frames/foundation, once it is brooded, you make sure the queen is up there, slot in a QX and leave the brood in the free comb emerge before removing it.
Pretty logical really - it's how Tom Seeley used to transfer the bees he'd caught in his swarm boxes way back when he started on his journey.
I once had a Demarree'd hive fall over after a stand was undermined. When I got to it a week later the bees had happily continued to draw QC's in there, but at 90° to the 'correct' orientation of the cells

Thank you Emyr for your response. I did look up, and read, the comments about Bailey exchange on Dave Cushman's site. I am not querying the Bailey Exchange method.

I was wondering about the comment which spoke about turning the hive box upside down. I made reference to the slope of the cells in honeycomb, and wondered if that was significant. I have seen various references about giving honey and brood comb back to bees, when bees had been "rescued" from a cut-out. It had been pointed out that care should be taken to make sure that rescued comb should be installed "right-way-up" when it is rubber-banded into a honey frame. It is in that context, when the importance of "right-way-up" is emphasized, that I was asking the question. I have seen Dany's response to my query, but I find myself wondering whether placing comb upside-down might have any consequences which beekeepers could utilise.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have seen various references about giving honey and brood comb back to bees, when bees had been "rescued" from a cut-out. It had been pointed out that care should be taken to make sure that rescued comb should be installed "right-way-up" when it is rubber-banded into a honey frame.

The difference being, in that context one is 'recycling' useable comb by putting it back into the hive - the bees will quickly fix that comb to the frames and the rubber bands will be superfluous. In this particular context the comb is only there pro temps - once the brood has emerged, and any stores shifted up into the new box, the old comb will be discarded.

 

[Murox]

I am fascinated by the comment to “Turn it upside down”, and wonder at the reasoning behind this suggestion.

I know that bees construct their honeycomb cells on an angle, so that nectar and honey do not drain out of the cells. If the frames were inverted, then any stored honey could easily run out of uncapped cells, and the bees would be quick to catch it.

Would the bees then “automatically” move the honey to correctly oriented honeycomb? Would the bees abandon the incorrectly oriented honeycomb? – or would they reconstruct/rebuild it with cells which were correctly sloped?

I cant completely answer your question, however I can say that when I have oriented frames on their sides when installing standard frames into a deep long hive nothing seemed to occur. They went on to use, build and draw out perfectly normal comb.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I cant completely answer your question, however I can say that when I have oriented frames on their sides when installing standard frames into a deep long hive nothing seemed to occur. They went on to use, build and draw out perfectly normal comb.

I bet they did. Sometimes we over think things.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I bet they did. Sometimes we over think things.

Apparently it's compulsory in some camps of beekeepers

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well UB could take a frame of BIAS and install it into an observation hive but upside down, taking a time lapse but that might show only what happens in that frame not in any other

 

[Sutty]

I read an article somewhere on turning boxes upside down for a varroa reduction, something about the mite larvae being less able to find the right place to feed. Can't remember much detail, but the "downslope" of the comb as a result didn't seem to cause any problems.

 

[pargyle]

The offer- a hive full of bees for free if I would like to uplift it.

The issue - this was a swarm that moved into a brood box 2 years and has not been touched. There are no frames and the natural comb has glued the roof to the box to the floor.

What would be the best way to transfer the bees in this to a new hive with fresh foundation (and maybe a couple of old drawn combs) because if I just lift the roof off, it's going to fall in and crush bees.

Cheers

I should think that what is inside is a work of art ...as has been said - it's going to be a lot easier to get the floor off than the roof - a cheese wire will help to cut through any comb that is joined to the floor at the bottom. Once you have the floor off you will be able to see more clearly what sort of arrangement they have made with the comb. I did a compost bin cut out two years ago and the combs they had built were perfectly aligned North and South and as straight as if they had frames in there - quite took me aback as more often than not the combs are bent into all sorts of shapes and there's brace comb everywhere.

The kindest way to get them into a new box is as has been well decribed above although I tried it with a colony that had taken up residence in an upturned plantpot and they steadfastly refused to move out of the plantpot and into the hive above ... stupid bees.