Frame swapping

[Patrick1]

What is it with the training of beekeepers that lets people tell them to introduce frames from one hive to another because one is looking a bit weaker.

A new beekeeper could well think this is the correct way to keep bees.

Try this, Covid is bad in some other countries much worse than UK, so lets send thousands of UK people to those countries to improve their health, as silly analogy I agree.

One of the bonuses for keeping Langstroth in the early days for me was that other beekeepers could not help my failing colonies with a frame from theirs. I didn’t realise this benefit at the time.

The two genuine points are, depleting one colony with a frame of brood into another must be wrong.
How many beekeepers in the early years can identify EFB or AFB or even varroa come to that.
How many beekeepers no matter how many years’ experience can identify any diseases.
I hope this inspires some discussions around good housekeeping, a winter subject maybe.

 

[Erichalfbee]

What is it with the training of beekeepers that lets people tell them to introduce frames from one hive to another because one is looking a bit weaker.
No manipulation should be done willy nilly

Are new beekeepers really taught this or have you picked up that sometimes it’s suggested here?
It’s a perfectly acceptable manipulation done in the right circumstances. It depends why the colony is “weak”

 

[Patrick1]

My first hives where nationals, a verry nice bee buddy offered to help me out in the spring when the last one was failing by giving me a frame of brood.

The second point you make is exactly what escapes a lot of beekeepers, “why is it a weak hive”

 

[Erichalfbee]

My first hives where nationals, a verry nice bee buddy offered to help me out in the spring when the last one was failing by giving me a frame of brood.

The second point you make is exactly what escapes a lot of beekeepers, “why is it a weak hive”

Education education
/Mentor.....I agree there's a lot of hearsay absolutely rotten advice that folk bring here when they have a problem.
I mean that they have been given already

 

[North End Bees]

Try this, Covid is bad in some other countries much worse than UK, so lets send thousands of UK people to those countries to improve their health, as silly analogy I agree.

Yes, a silly analogy.
We can help out ailing countries by sending them resources, e.g vaccinations, medicines, equipment, etc.
In the same way, a frame of brood is a resource.

Small colonies aren't always small because they're sick. So a frame of emerging brood will build up those colonies rather than succumb themselves.

It's not a question of never donating brood. It's a question of learning to recognise disease, which every beekeeper should be doing anyway.

 

[GuyNir]

Don’t you help out a ’weaker’ colony when doing a split?

agree with the points above. Knowing to recognise disease and understanding why the colony is weak is key.

 

[Ian123]

What is it with the training of beekeepers that lets people tell them to introduce frames from one hive to another because one is looking a bit weaker.

A new beekeeper could well think this is the correct way to keep bees.

Try this, Covid is bad in some other countries much worse than UK, so lets send thousands of UK people to those countries to improve their health, as silly analogy I agree.

One of the bonuses for keeping Langstroth in the early days for me was that other beekeepers could not help my failing colonies with a frame from theirs. I didn’t realise this benefit at the time.

The two genuine points are, depleting one colony with a frame of brood into another must be wrong.
How many beekeepers in the early years can identify EFB or AFB or even varroa come to that.
How many beekeepers no matter how many years’ experience can identify any diseases.
I hope this inspires some discussions around good housekeeping, a winter subject maybe.

Finding out why the colony/nuc is weak is obviously the most pertinent point. But don’t you or your suppliers make up Nucs or rear queens, I’d rather suspect like myself a large amount of frame transfer…..horses for courses?

 

[Murox]

The lack of the availability of good reliable education in beekeeping husbandry and technique seems to have plagued beekeepers for a long time in the Uk, thats not to say there are no good educators, rather they are far and few between and difficult for the uninitiated to identify. The internet has filled the void with a lot of gobbledygook which has become especially noticeable during the past 18 months or so. I know I'm as guilty as the next at jumping to conclusions without fully thinking about the why's and wherefores.

 

[madasafish]

Having suffered from AFB and seen an apiary suffering from AFB twice (not mine):
I swap combs from nucs to main hives to strengthen them.

When inspecting I pay particular attention to capped brood for any signs of irregularities.

Unless you go a on a course with live examples. disease identification can be an issue.

Cramp's Beekeepers' Field Guide is invaluable for its disease photos: I take it with me in my toolbag.
https://www.google.com/search?q=wbe...rome..69i57.8231j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

 

[Erichalfbee]

On that subject. Any beginner who gets a visit from their SBI should sit on their shoulder and ask for an explanation of everything that is being examined. The inspectors are always willing to oblige and usually happy to chat as a beekeeper not an inspector ….. if you know what I mean.

 

[Parsonage Bees]

Should I have supers dedicated to individual colonies if EFB can be transmitted through honey?

 

[drex]

Depends how OCD you want to be. I keep boxes within an apiary .

 

[Anduril]

As Ian123, I know of commercial beekeepers who throw together 3 different frames of brood and add a queen, this way confuses the bees from fighting each other. Another response to this is, if you have a weak hive and you add a frame of brood, there may not be enough bees to cover the frame and the bees don't emerge. Then you have wasted a frame and the colony is still weak.

 

[user 819]

Doing so with frames from ones own colonies that you know, is ok to to bolster if you believe they are healthy and it will help out the weaker colony.
Doing so from an unknown source or a friend no matter how well you know them I wouldn't from the disease risk.

If I have a weak colony I need to know and realise why they are so and not artificially bolster them with out good reason.

The only real time I bolster any bees is a nuc split, I will add a frame of brood/bees or simply shake bees in a day or two afterwards if numbers look low.

 

[GuyNir]

Are we all not saying the same thing?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

On the flip side, before Redwood and I took over the running of the association apiary it was a case of too many 'experts' working independently of one another frames being taken from the one 'healthy' colony to boost another weak failing colony, then the next person doing the same to boost 'their' chosen hive with no communication between any of them. It resulted in yet another season of no honey and a 100% overwinter mortality.

 

[Markthebuilder]

I have one brood frame packed both sides with honey, it’s been in at least 3 hives /nucs and yesterday I moved it from an 8 frame with plenty of stores to a 6 that is light. If this lot don’t use it given the forecast I will have to seriously think about why.
building up from one hive unless you are only going to put packages or swarms onto new foundation then essentially sharing frames / moving frames from hive to hive is essentially what we do . Unless I have beekeeping upside down

obviously the question needs to be asked why do they need a frame and is the frame you are providing healthy.. but
unfortunately spoors from CBPV,Chalk, afb may well be present but the bees show no symptoms.

the above said I am just a builder and bee landlord with lots to learn

 

[Patrick1]

Stores are generally not the issue, the problem with adding brood is that it will weaken an otherwise strong colony the donator, the weaker one will not benefit if for instance it has high loads of varroa. Even worse if it is not you hive that the donation comes from you could be introducing something into your apiary that didn’t exist.

This time of year when we try to equalize our hives is a particular risky time.

 

[Patrick1]

Education education
/Mentor.....I agree there's a lot of hearsay absolutely rotten advice that folk bring here when they have a problem.
I mean that they have been given already

We are of course talking education, interestingly enough bee disease AFB & EFB are in the 8th modular.
New beekeepers need to know that the SBI is such a good safety net, use them before we lose them.

 

[Patrick1]

Yes, a silly analogy.
We can help out ailing countries by sending them resources, e.g vaccinations, medicines, equipment, etc.
In the same way, a frame of brood is a resource.

Small colonies aren't always small because they're sick. So a frame of emerging brood will build up those colonies rather than succumb themselves.

It's not a question of never donating brood. It's a question of learning to recognise disease, which every beekeeper should be doing anyway.

It was meant to be a silly analogy, however you do raise another point.

Yes we can send drugs to help other countries and I hope we do our bit, unfortunately we cannot send drugs to our beehives for EFB & AFB. In an ideal beekeeping world we would hope new beekeepers are shown what is normal health.

What about the dozens of people that buy stock from us having never seen inside a hive before !

Introducing a frame is not a bad thing per se