Frame Spacing reduces Drones, Swarming & Varroa???

[Fusion_power]

I've been treatment free since 2005 and my bees are thriving. Those of you who keep ballyhooing about Mellifera having no resistance are provably wrong. The resistance is there. It takes years of hard work to concentrate it enough for the bees to be able to survive on their own. That picture finman keeps complaining about with the uncapped brood is normal behavior of bees that pull varroa out of cells and destroy them.

 

[Finman]

I've been treatment free since 2005 and my bees are thriving. Those of you who keep ballyhooing about Mellifera having no resistance are provably wrong. The resistance is there. It takes years of hard work to concentrate it enough for the bees to be able to survive on their own. That picture finman keeps complaining about with the uncapped brood is normal behavior of bees that pull varroa out of cells and destroy them.

Such story. Not honest, but story however.

What is another domestic animal where the owner lets pests stay in their amimals?

How big is your typical winter cluster? How many frames?... If you have winter there?

.

 

[Hivemaker.]

What is another domestic animal where the owner lets pests stay in their amimals?

 

[TooBee...]

There must be other factors involved?
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I too have been thinking about "other factors", many Small Cell-ers also use other techniques, one of which, if I am not mistaken, is to leave the bees alone, allowing them to 'build up a resistance' - a kindof tough love: Basically they appear to avoid strong chemical treatments for their hives ... and here we may have an answer!

Below is a link to a Beekeeper in Britain which thought he had bred a Varroa resistant bee strain, however on scientific examination it was found that his Varroa had non-lethal forms of bacteria which crowded out the more lethal forms which lead to weakened colonies and then eventually to colony collapse - this was able to be achieved by not treating his hives with chemicals that would have killed of the mites, allowing newer mites to infect the hives with lethal strains of bacteria; I've tried to explain it as best as I can, if you are familiar with making Sauerkraut (creating an environment to allow non-lethal, food preserving good bacteria to thrive, which in turns crowds out the lethal bacteria) then you will understand it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUFDXl8VGvs

This 10 min video is so interesting you should watch it all - or the punch line is at 6:43 to 7:56

 

[Beefriendly]

It was a benign form of Deformed Wing Virus, not a bacteria.
In all the various colonies of bees that survive without treatment this is the only case I know of to date
Generally they are very small colonies that frequently swarm (brood break), not what a beekeeper wants in his bees.

 

[Finman]

.
You think that narrow gaps in hives breed mite resistant bees....

And this all started from what. And now it is a fact.

It took only 24 hours to reviele out. Forget isolated mating stations..

 

[Beefriendly]

.
You think that narrow gaps in hives breed mite resistant bees....

No I do not. Wherever did you get that idea from?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I too have been thinking about "other factors", many Small Cell-ers also use other techniques, one of which, if I am not mistaken, is to leave the bees alone, allowing them to 'build up a resistance' -

But they don't, that's the point, they just die - but not before creating a varroa factory which infects any other apiary in the vicinity.
All these leaveitloners have one thing in common - they are very coy about disclosing how many colonies they have let die an have had to replace.

Below is a link to a Beekeeper in Britain which thought he had bred a Varroa resistant bee strain, however on scientific examination it was found that his Varroa had non-lethal forms of bacteria if you are familiar with making Sauerkraut (creating an environment to allow non-lethal, food preserving good bacteria to thrive, which in turns crowds out the lethal bacteria) then you will understand it.

Obviously you don't - as it wasn't a bacteria but, as Beefriendly says - a different variant of DWV, so a bit like your sauerkraut comparison, you're talking a load of composted cabbage
But it's obvious there's no point arguing as you have decided on a course of listening to fantasy tales and following madcap theories on smaller cells, non existent beespace stories and feeding bees rhubarb - all found under a gooseberry bush and proven time and time again to absolute rubbish, rather than just get on with the job of managing colonies properly and treating effectively as and when required

.
You think that narrow gaps in hives breed mite resistant bees....

And this all started from what. And now it is a fact.

It took only 24 hours to reviele out. Forget isolated mating stations..

Well said.

 

[domino]

I've been treatment free since 2005 and my bees are thriving. Those of you who keep ballyhooing about Mellifera having no resistance are provably wrong. The resistance is there. It takes years of hard work to concentrate it enough for the bees to be able to survive on their own. That picture finman keeps complaining about with the uncapped brood is normal behavior of bees that pull varroa out of cells and destroy them.

If I understand your previous posts you don't treat but you do intervene - you aren't a leave alone beekeeper.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Also admits his bees are very swarmy and has low yields.

 

[Fusion_power]

Also admits his bees are very swarmy and has low yields.

I'm making progress on the swarming. Another 5 years of selecting for non-swarming traits should dramatically improve the genetics. This year was the lowest level of swarming in the last 10 years.

I can't do much about the honey yields. This area has never produced more than @60 kg surplus from a very strong colony. I had a decent crop this year though with a tad over 25 kg per colony average.

And this all started from what.

It started from watching my bees closely and finding a single colony that was resistant to varroa. Fortunately, I'm not the only one who is keeping highly varroa resistant bees. This area is nearly 100% treatment free beekeepers. Sometimes I wonder if I should have pursued a degree was in frog dreaming and cloud watching. Then I could have moved to Finland and produced huge crops of honey.

 

[TooBee...]

Apologies to all, I used the word "bacteria" when I should have been more accurate and written "virus" - however this does not change the point that I was paraphrasing from the Virus Expert from Plymouth, Dr Declan Schroeder.
"Over the past 50 years, many millions of European honey bee (Apis mellifera) colonies have died as the ectoparasitic mite, Varroa destructor, has spread around the world. Subsequent studies have indicated that the mite's association with a group of RNA viral pathogens (Deformed Wing Virus, DWV) correlates with colony death. Here, we propose a phenomenon known as superinfection exclusion that provides an explanation of how certain A. mellifera populations have survived, despite Varroa infestation and high DWV loads. Next-generation sequencing has shown that a non-lethal DWV variant 'type B' has become established in these colonies and that the lethal 'type A' DWV variant fails to persist in the bee population. We propose that this novel stable host-pathogen relationship prevents the accumulation of lethal variants, suggesting that this interaction could be exploited for the development of an effective treatment that minimises colony losses in the future."
https://www.pubfacts.com/detail/265...val-of-honey-bees-in-Varroa-infested-colonies

you're talking a load of composted cabbage
Well said.

Well then, please put your counter claim to the publication "Superinfection exclusion and the long-term survival of honey bees in Varroa-infested colonies" by Dr Declan Schroeder, which inspired the YouTube video....

But it's obvious there's no point arguing as you have decided on a course of listening to fantasy tales and following madcap theories on smaller cells, non existent beespace stories and feeding bees rhubarb

I'm not arguing, the rest of us were having a discussion, a debate, if you want to argue, feel free, but you're on your own

I have not "decided" on any "course" of anything, hence the reason for starting and contributing to Threads, asking questions and providing possible explanations, all in an attempt to increase one's understanding.
It appears that you are the one who has "decided" to jump to conclusions without evidence (ie: I asked a question about a reference to Rhubarb and apparently now I'm feeding it to bees, and I am a proponent of small cell and spacing!) and reject conclusions when they have scientific evidence backing them up (ie: the findings of Dr Declan Schroeder, which you refer to as "fantasy tales")!

PS: For your information, you may want to hear this, to the best of my knowledge there is no scientific evidence which supports claims that small cell or small spacing helps fight varroa in European Honey Bees - however my belief in this statement only means that I will attempt to disprove it all the more; if you don't understand that then go and read Popper's "Objective Knowledge"

 

[Beefriendly]

I'm making progress on the swarming.

And if the frequent swarming is an essential part of their defense against varroa? It is for some feral colonies as it introduces brood breaks so lessens the available brood for varroa multiplication.

 

[Beefriendly]

Next-generation sequencing has shown that a non-lethal DWV variant 'type B' has become established in these colonies and that the lethal 'type A' DWV variant fails to persist in the bee population.

Yet the long term effects of this non lethal virus infection are not known. Other than the bees are still carrying a heavy parasite load and are infected with virus and consequently don't produce much honey. i.e sick bees ....but that's fine as it saves me a job treating for varroa!
This strategy is not found in other isolated regions that are treatment free, so it's not the bee all or end all of bees surviving with varroa.

 

[Fusion_power]

Since you are looking honestly and trying to figure out what works, here is some more information perhaps worth reading.

I have not seen any impact from small cell combs on varroa populations. I started using small cell about the same time I got the first varroa resistant bees in 2005 and ran roughly half small cell 4.9mm and half 5.3mm colonies until 2016. The only thing I proved was that mite resistant queens survived and mite susceptible queens died.

I ran 31mm narrow comb spacing since 1977. I do not ascribe any advantages over varroa or nosema or any other bee diseases to use of narrow spacing. Narrow spacing has some advantages most of which amount to earlier spring buildup. There are some disadvantages such as an increase in swarming tendency. Overall, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages since I can split large colonies to control swarming. I do not advocate changing to narrow frames mostly because they cannot be purchased commercially. If you are willing to put in the time to make the frames and to wire them properly with good foundation, you will quickly find out whether they are beneficial.

I built all new equipment starting in 2016 and moved my bees over into square Dadant hives with frames 32 mm center to center and using 5.1mm foundation. There are enough advantages to this configuration to make it worth the time required to convert. I have bees at 4 locations currently with plans to expand to 5 apiaries for 2018. I am running mostly queens derived from my mite resistant bees from 2005 though I brought in some stock from Carpenter Apiaries and I tried some queens from BWeaver. The Carpenter queens do quite well. BWeaver's queens have quite a bit of African genetics. I'm working on the 4th generation raised from one of the BWeaver queens gaining resistance to small hive beetles from them. I brought in some Buckfast queens in 2016 and raised a few from one of them this year. I'm working to get reduced swarming into my line from them.

JBM's normal conversation is to argue. He's quite good at it. I've often wanted to see him engage in an argument with himself to see which would win. Finman's normal conversation is to disparage other beekeepers while telling how to make large amounts of honey. Finny sometimes comes across as a tad senile, but overall, he does know beekeeping. Thankfully, there are other Finnish beekeepers who are interested in breeding varroa resistant bees. I recommend reading about Juhani Lunden's efforts to breed mite resistant bees in Finland.

Google translate will probably make a mess of this, but here it is anyway.

JBM: n normaali keskustelu on kiistää. Hän on melko hyvä siinä. Olen usein halunnut nähdä hänet käsittelevän itseään nähdäkseen, mikä voittaa. Finmanin tavanomainen keskustelu on heikentää muita mehiläishoitajia kertomalla kuinka tehdä suuria määriä hunajaa. finny joskus esiintyy tad senile, mutta kaiken kaikkiaan hän tuntee mehiläishoito. Onneksi on muita suomalaisia mehiläishoitajia, jotka ovat kiinnostuneita varroa-resistenttien mehiläisten kasvattamisesta. Suosittelen lukemaan Juhani Lundenin pyrkimyksiä rodun vastustuskykyisten mehiläisten kasvattamiseen Suomessa.

 

[Fusion_power]

And if the frequent swarming is an essential part of their defense against varroa?

It is not. This can be shown by very low varroa counts at any time of year. I pulled drone larvae from a colony a year or two ago because someone wanted to know how high my counts were. I found a varroa in the cell with the 127th drone uncapped. My bees show VSH and allogrooming traits.

This list is far from complete. A recent dutch study showed at least 2 more mechanisms for resistance.

Varroa Selective Hygiene - disrupts the reproductive cycle of the varroa mite
a. Detect infested larvae
b. Uncap infested larvae
c. Remove infested larvae
d. selection involves testing for hygienic behavior and removal of infested larvae

Allogrooming - bees grooming each other to remove mites
a. Varroa mauling - chewing and biting the mites which kills them
b. Selection involves monitoring for chewed mites on the bottom board

Breaks in brood rearing - during brood breaks, varroa cannot reproduce.
a. Heavy pollen collection - bees that collect pollen heavily are more sensitive to lack of pollen and shut down brood rearing earlier.
b. Sensitive to nectar dearth - bees that react to nectar shortage by breaking the brood cycle.
c. Swarming is one type brood break but is not as effective as other strategies.
d. Selection involves monitoring for bees that shut down brood rearing when pollen is unavailable.

Reduced days to worker maturity - fewer days gives mites less time to reproduce
a. some worker bees mature in 19 days vs standard 21
b. using small cell foundation and timing brood emergence
c. Selection involves identifying the small percentage of colonies that mature workers in fewer days.

Mite entombment - bee larvae shed cocoons in such a way that mites are trapped.
a. some colonies show more entombed mites.
b. selection involves counting entombed mites after a brood cycle and breeding from colonies with higher counts.

Superinfection exclusion - A variant of DWV that is less virulent protects infected bees from other strains.
a. Identified in a British apiary after years of breeding from survivor colonies.
b. Selection is by breeding from survivors that live with large mite populations.

 

[Finman]

Since you are looking honestly and trying to figure out what works, here is some more information perhaps worth reading.

I have not seen any impact from small cell combs on varroa populations. I started using small cell about the same time I got the first varroa resistant bees in 2005 and ran roughly half small cell 4.9mm and half 5.3mm colonies until 2016. The only thing I proved was that mite resistant queens survived and mite susceptible queens died.

I ran 31mm narrow comb spacing since 1977. I do not ascribe any advantages over varroa or nosema or any other bee diseases to use of narrow spacing. Narrow spacing has some advantages most of which amount to earlier spring buildup. There are some disadvantages such as an increase in swarming tendency. Overall, the advantages outweigh the disadvantages since I can split large colonies to control swarming. I do not advocate changing to narrow frames mostly because they cannot be purchased commercially. If you are willing to put in the time to make the frames and to wire them properly with good foundation, you will quickly find out whether they are beneficial.

I built all new equipment starting in 2016 and moved my bees over into square Dadant hives with frames 32 mm center to center and using 5.1mm foundation. There are enough advantages to this configuration to make it worth the time required to convert. I have bees at 4 locations currently with plans to expand to 5 apiaries for 2018. I am running mostly queens derived from my mite resistant bees from 2005 though I brought in some stock from Carpenter Apiaries and I tried some queens from BWeaver. The Carpenter queens do quite well. BWeaver's queens have quite a bit of African genetics. I'm working on the 4th generation raised from one of the BWeaver queens gaining resistance to small hive beetles from them. I brought in some Buckfast queens in 2016 and raised a few from one of them this year. I'm working to get reduced swarming into my line from them.

JBM's normal conversation is to argue. He's quite good at I recommend reading about Juhani Lunden's efforts to breed mite resistant bees in Finland.

Google translate will probably make a mess of this, but here it is anyway.

.

If you look lates news from Lunden, varroa has killed most of his hives.

 

[domino]

This list is far from complete. A recent dutch study showed at least 2 more mechanisms for resistance.

Sound interesting do you have a citation?

 

[domino]

Well then, please put your counter claim to the publication "Superinfection exclusion and the long-term survival of honey bees in Varroa-infested colonies" by Dr Declan Schroeder, which inspired the YouTube video....

I'm curious what you took away from this paper and how you think it can be applied to your beekeeping practice?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Well then, please put your counter claim to the publication "Superinfection exclusion and the long-term survival of honey bees in Varroa-infested colonies" by Dr Declan Schroeder, which inspired the YouTube video....

Why? I have never claimed there is no truth in Schroeder's findings, I went to Prof. Martin's lecture on DWV A/B a few years ago and found it very informative and gave food for thought.
I said YOU were talking rubbish based on a yootoob video and your supposition it was a benign bacteria. (amongst the rest of the absolute tosh you have recycled on here)