Frame Spacing reduces Drones, Swarming & Varroa???

[SDM]

AHB's are smaller.

 

[rook66]

AHB's are smaller.

I think most of the theroies on comb centering orginated in Arizona along with small cell

 

[Poly Hive]

And a right can of VERY expensive worms resulted.

Utter claptrap it turned out to be.

PH

 

[TooBee...]

I think most of the theroies on comb centering orginated in Arizona along with small cell

Hi
I'm guessing you're referring to Dee Lusby?

I had some recollection at the back of my mind that proponents of Small Cell claim her bees were / are not Africanised, so a one minute search brought this up,

https://resistantbees.com/blog/?page_id=933

Just in case anyone's interested.

Thorne sells wax foundation for Apis mellifera scutellata measuring 4.7mm, therefore a smaller bee (4.7mm is a lot smaller than standard) would presumably be better on a smaller spacing.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Thorne sells wax foundation for Apis mellifera scutellata measuring 4.7mm

We don't have Apis mellifera scutellata here so not much use.

I had some recollection at the back of my mind that proponents of Small Cell claim her bees were / are not Africanised, so a one minute search brought this up,

Wonderful things......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imRT8wGe0uM

 

[Finman]

Hi
I'm guessing you're referring to Dee Lusby?

I had some recollection at the back of my mind that proponents of Small Cell claim her bees were / are not Africanised, so a one minute search brought this up,

https://resistantbees.com/blog/?page_id=933

Just in case anyone's interested.

Thorne sells wax foundation for Apis mellifera scutellata measuring 4.7mm, therefore a smaller bee (4.7mm is a lot smaller than standard) would presumably be better on a smaller spacing.

This Style is one if the biggest reason to 50% colony losses on hobby beekeeping on USA.

Resistant bees which are resistant.
.
.

 

[Fusion_power]

Interesting thread. Am I the only beekeeper here who has used frames spaced 31 mm center to center?

There is quite a bit of variation in comb spacing by different bee races. Mellifera comb spacing is wider than Italians. Italians are wider than most African races. There is similar variation in cell size. Mellifera cells run about 5.3 mm, Ligustica about 5.0 mm, and most African races run about 4.6 mm. These are not absolute figures because cell size varies even within a single colony.

Honeybees make 3 sizes of cells, not 2. The types are drone, worker, and honey storage. Since drone and worker is pretty well known, honey storage cells are worth a bit of discussion. Honey storage cells are built slightly larger cell size, are usually deeper than brood cells, have a different angle than brood cells, and are rarely filled with pollen. Think about this a bit and look hard at a brood comb for a few minutes and it will make sense. The brood is toward the bottom center of the comb, pollen in a semicircle around the brood, then honey storage cells outside the pollen ring. Bees will raise brood in storage cells if they need the room.

I've run colonies with frames spaced 38 mm, 35 mm, and 31 mm center to center. There are huge differences in the way the colonies behave depending on the spacing.

Dadant published that 38 mm spacing results in less swarming. While correct, he did not understand why he was correct. The answer lies in understanding more about spring buildup. A given volume of bees can occupy a certain area in the spring buildup period. If the combs are spaced wider, the bees cover fewer total cells. This slows down the spring buildup by reducing the number of cells of brood in each brood cycle. If the spring flow starts before the bees reach strength to swarm, they are much more likely to stay in the hive and make honey. With 38 MM spacing, my bees reach swarm strength in 10 to 12 weeks.

What about 35 mm spacing? it is a compromise between the wider spacing recommended by Dadant and the narrower spacing suggested by researchers who measured colonies that built their own comb. Since most beekeepers use 35 mm spacing and have a decent idea how it works, I'll only comment that it is a good general spacing that allows room to have some drone brood without making nearby combs unusable.

That gets us to 31 mm spacing. This spacing is too narrow for bees to produce drones without mucking up nearby combs. Are the bees happy without drones? Emphatically not! They will tear down combs and make room for drones or they will build comb in any area with enough room. Does this spacing reduce swarming? No, quite the opposite, it encourages swarming. Why? Again, think about spring buildup. A cluster can cover a certain amount of comb for a given size cluster. If the combs are closer together, the cluster can keep a larger area of brood warm therefore they produce more brood earlier. This effect is glaringly evident when a colony goes from no brood to swarm strength in 8 weeks or less. A colony that reaches peak population 3 or 4 weeks before the spring flow starts is going to swarm!

Does narrow spacing reduce the number of drones in a colony? No, it only encourages the bees to tear down cells and make drone combs. However, having fewer frames in the colony has a significant effect on reducing the number of drones and on swarming inclination. A colony with only 3 frames for brood will almost never tear down those combs to rear drones. This is an effect that is used by virtually all queen breeders who make an effort to control the drone population near their mating yards. This is the reason small nucs are used to produce queens.

tldr: narrow frame spacing increases swarming inclination and fewer frames in the hive reduces tendency to produce drones.

 

[Finman]

.
I wonder, how this all helps to get bigger yields?

I use normal standard dimensions and I get good yields sometimes, and sometimes not. Do my bees are sick when I use standard combs and gaps... No university research has handled this issue.


Yeah... Standards are sick!

.

 

[TooBee...]

.
I wonder, how this all helps to get bigger yields?

You could use smaller spacing in your Brood boxes to allow for larger colonies, and use larger spacing for your Super boxes to allow for fat honey filled combs...maybe?

 

[TooBee...]

Interesting thread. Am I the only beekeeper here who has used frames spaced 31 mm center to center?
...
I've run colonies with frames spaced 38 mm, 35 mm, and 31 mm center to center. There are huge differences in the way the colonies behave depending on the spacing.
...
tldr: narrow frame spacing increases swarming inclination and fewer frames in the hive reduces tendency to produce drones.

Thank you for sharing your experience, it was very informative.

 

[Beefriendly]

You could use smaller spacing in your Brood boxes to allow for larger colonies, and use larger spacing for your Super boxes to allow for fat honey filled combs...maybe?

That is what a lot of keepers do already, 11 frames to a brood box and 10 (sometimes 9) in the super.
Never worked out if brought more weight per super, but it means one less frame per super to uncap.

 

[Finman]

You could use smaller spacing in your Brood boxes to allow for larger colonies, and use larger spacing for your Super boxes to allow for fat honey filled combs...maybe?

I do not use smaller spacing, because 35 mm is really good. And I use -1 frame spacing in supers. I have used -1 spacing 50 years, and so do many others. Nothing new in it.

But small cells and smaller spacing has no real advantage. It is black magic of natural beekeepers. You need small bees in such hive. I like big normal bees.

My hives are now 2 metre high. Such hives can contain 120 kg honey. I do not need bigger hives.

I have accustomed to narrow spacing whem bees make brood frames fat with honey. Very difficult to inspect frames then. And there are all kind drone brood lumps there.

.

 

[G4WIL]

I don't think drone broad leads to swarming, it's just an indication that the resources are available to make them.



Varroa my prefer drone board but it'll hop into work cells if it can't find drones.



Trying to maintain frame spacing with that precision seems a lot more work than using standard management techniques.

This because the Cerana drone equates in size to Melifera workers !


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[domino]

This because the Cerana drone equates in size to Melifera workers !


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All varroa will use worker cells at a pinch. Studies show they are attracted to the raised rims of a cell.

I know a.c drones are roughly the same size as a.m workers, which is wht the suggestion small cell being less attractive to varroa never made sense to me.

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[G4WIL]

All varroa will use worker cells at a pinch. Studies show they are attracted to the raised rims of a cell.

I know a.c drones are roughly the same size as a.m workers, which is wht the suggestion small cell being less attractive to varroa never made sense to me.

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The Varroa and cerana coexist because the Varroa Don’t infest their worker cells , whereas they do in Melifera .
I can see where reducing cell sizes to reduce Melifera bee sizes to that of Cerana attracts interest !
There must be other factors involved?


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[domino]

The Varroa and cerana coexist because the Varroa Don’t infest their worker cells , whereas they do in Melifera .
I can see where reducing cell sizes to reduce Melifera bee sizes to that of Cerana attracts interest !
There must be other factors involved?


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Varroa do use worker cells in a.cerana.

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[G4WIL]

Varroa do use worker cells in a.cerana.

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Mmhhh! I’m out of date but this is interesting !

http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/varroa_mite.htm


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[Finman]

Varroa do use worker cells in a.cerana.

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Yes, I found a research 1988, which tells it is so. Usually it is written that bees destroy cerana's worker cell mites.

.but natural beekeepers often hope that mellifera do or will do same things like cerana. Evolution is their friend but in these days hope do bigg losses to their hives.

 

[domino]

Mmhhh! I’m out of date but this is interesting !

http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/varroa_mite.htm

Call size doesn't factor into varroa control.

In this study https://www.nature.com/articles/srep27210 you can see the reason that varroa is unable to establish itself in worker brood in A. cerana.

It isn't that varroa can't use the cells, it is because a.cerana worker brood has no tolerance for being fed on by varroa and signal their nestmates they are wounded. This leads to the infected larvae being removed.

 

[G4WIL]

Call size doesn't factor into varroa control.



In this study https://www.nature.com/articles/srep27210 you can see the reason that varroa is unable to establish itself in worker brood in A. cerana.



It isn't that varroa can't use the cells, it is because a.cerana worker brood has no tolerance for being fed on by varroa and signal their nestmates they are wounded. This leads to the infected larvae being removed.

Apparently Varroa has been in contact with Melifera for between 50 and 100 years !
Yet very little, if any strategy’s being learned !
The hands off lobby have vain hope methinks ?


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