Foundationless dilemma

[Leila]

We're first year beekeepers and started with a 5 frame nucleus and queen bred by a local beekeeper and our mentor. We live in the Italian Apennines at just under 1200m, so summer, although warm, is quite short, and winter is snowy. The bees are sited in a lush meadow behind the house.
We wanted to use foundationless frames, so when we started to add frames to the hive, we started adding foundationless. We have 2 (Dadant) hives, one of which is expanding at a rate of knots, while the other one is a bit behind, so we only added the new frames to the strong hive. They drew it down really quickly and really nicely. Unfortunately it consisted almost entirely of drone comb and when our mentor came to help us check the progress of the hives, he was dismayed to see all the drone comb and said if they carried on like that they wouldn't build up enough workers to survive the winter, never mind produce any honey. The other hive he didn't seem concerned about, even though they are fewer. We had expected to shift a frame over from the strong hive to boost the weaker one but we have now been advised to sacrifice the drone comb as a varroa control (no sign of varroa in any of the drone cells we inspected, or on the tray under the hive…) and replace the frame with a waxed one. I'd spent ages preparing the foundationless frames with either a starter strip of wax or one made of wood. Now we have to go and buy waxed frames again.
Obviously, as a local keeper, and knowing our particular climate, our mentor is in the best position to advise us, but we really want to try and avoid using foundation, while at the same time, the survival of our bees over the winter is our priority. It seems that no one up here has had any success in over-wintering bees and take them down to the polluted plains. Thoughts? Sorry for the long post!

 

[Anduril]

I've used starter strips on some of my hives, this year on one hive I have noticed more drone cells being made which I am not happy with. Use foundation and alternate the frames, to start with. You could remove some of your foundationless frames and put them in the other hive to give it a boost. Even if you cut the drone cells out the bees may replace it with the same. As for overwintering your bees you could cover the hives in a recticel cosy. This may amuse your mentor and fellow beekeepers, but if the hives have enough stores to overwinter then they should survive.

 

[Leila]

Even if you cut the drone cells out the bees may replace it with the same.

Yes, I agree. Our mentor wants us to replace these frames with foundation

As for overwintering your bees you could cover the hives in a recticel cosy. This may amuse your mentor and fellow beekeepers, but if the hives have enough stores to overwinter then they should survive.

What's that?

 

[Anduril]

It's a poly wall insulation, not sure what the brand name would be in Italy. Celotex and Kingspan are other brands.

 

[Anduril]

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=37807&highlight=Recticel+cosy
Picture in the second post.

 

[user 6228]

first seen on this forum almost 4 years ago and now being used across the atlantic

 

[Leila]

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=37807&highlight=Recticel+cosy
Picture in the second post.

Cool! Cheers

 

[pargyle]

Bees are not stupid ... they will resolve the drone issue when they want to and how they want to - I see up to 20% of drone comb a lot of the time in my foundationless hives but they still have more than enough workers ... your mentor I fear does not know what he is talking about - I've never seen a colony with too many drones unless there was a drone laying queen or laying workers ... and as for drones weakening a colony .... why would they create drones in the normal scheme of things if it affected their overwinter survival ?

 

[Poly Hive]

If you think bees can think think again.

PH

 

[Anduril]

Bees are not stupid ... they will resolve the drone issue when they want to and how they want to - I see up to 20% of drone comb a lot of the time in my foundationless hives but they still have more than enough workers ... your mentor I fear does not know what he is talking about - I've never seen a colony with too many drones unless there was a drone laying queen or laying workers ... and as for drones weakening a colony .... why would they create drones in the normal scheme of things if it affected their overwinter survival ?

I disagree, I have one hive I am not happy with, it has between 30-40% of drone brood, first time I have seen it in all the years I have been beekeeping. Drone laying queen and drone laying workers are ruled out. It is a strong hive and there are no drones being laid in worker cells and the queen is present. I will be requeening that hive since discovering this anomaly. As well as changing the comb.

 

[bingevader]

Yes, in an established hive, but not if she's just starting to go foundationless.
If I were to see this in an established colony, I might be worried.
However, when we first started to go foundationless, with a mix of frames, with and without foundation, we found that the bees often went a bit potty at first.
Given the freedom, they did built LOTS of drone comb.
It gets reconverted over time or used as stores.
I shouldn't worry too much just yet and wouldn't destroy it until you see what they do with some more frames.
Although the positives out weigh the negatives, that can be the problem with a mentor,
when what you are doing is out of their realm of experience or differs from what you'd like to do!

 

[pargyle]

I disagree, I have one hive I am not happy with, it has between 30-40% of drone brood, first time I have seen it in all the years I have been beekeeping. Drone laying queen and drone laying workers are ruled out. It is a strong hive and there are no drones being laid in worker cells and the queen is present. I will be requeening that hive since discovering this anomaly. As well as changing the comb.

You see ... I'd put that down to a queen who is on her way out ... firing blanks most of the time, perhaps not a drone layer but one that's past her best.

So .. are the bees in this hive converting worker size cells to drone size cells so she is laying drone eggs as a result or is she laying drone eggs in worker cells that are then being converted to drone size cells after she has laid .. ?? It's an unusual situation to have 40% drone brood in an established colony.

Just very interested in why this is happening ... you too, never having seen it before, must be equally mystified ! Too often we solve a perceived problem that is inconvenient for us beekeepers without knowing what the reason is for what is happening ... requeening should fix it .. but would they fix it themselves in due course ? We may never know ...

 

[Anduril]

You see ... I'd put that down to a queen who is on her way out ... firing blanks most of the time, perhaps not a drone layer but one that's past her best.

So .. are the bees in this hive converting worker size cells to drone size cells so she is laying drone eggs as a result or is she laying drone eggs in worker cells that are then being converted to drone size cells after she has laid .. ?? It's an unusual situation to have 40% drone brood in an established colony.

Just very interested in why this is happening ... you too, never having seen it before, must be equally mystified ! Too often we solve a perceived problem that is inconvenient for us beekeepers without knowing what the reason is for what is happening ... requeening should fix it .. but would they fix it themselves in due course ? We may never know ...

The queen is not on the way out as I have wall to wall brood. Second year. No conversion of cells whatsoever, drawing comb, new this year. Your second paragraph sounds like you are humanising the bees. The queen lays fertilised or unfertilised eggs dependant on the size of the cell. If she is a drone layer I would expect to see drones in worker cells, as to bees changing cells because the queen is laying drones I have never heard of that from reading books, talking to more experienced beekeepers than me, nor scientists. Queen needs replacing, comb needs changing. Brood pattern is worker and drone, no small drones in the hive. Even with new comb being drawn I have never come across more than 20% drone cells being built.

 

[pargyle]

The queen is not on the way out as I have wall to wall brood. Second year. No conversion of cells whatsoever, drawing comb, new this year. Your second paragraph sounds like you are humanising the bees. The queen lays fertilised or unfertilised eggs dependant on the size of the cell. If she is a drone layer I would expect to see drones in worker cells, as to bees changing cells because the queen is laying drones I have never heard of that from reading books, talking to more experienced beekeepers than me, nor scientists. Queen needs replacing, comb needs changing. Brood pattern is worker and drone, no small drones in the hive. Even with new comb being drawn I have never come across more than 20% drone cells being built.

No need to get umpy ... I'm just interested as to what is going on ... so they have built drone comb in abundance this year .. are they on foundation or foundationless ? I see my comb being changed by the bees to serve both drone and worker brood - they are more than capable of tearing down and re-building comb to suit what they want. This is not humanising - just what I have observed.

I agree with you .. 20% is usually what I see in my foundationless frames .. occasionally, when the season is just getting going I see an increase in drone comb ... but never to 40%. It's unusual and I'm curious .. what do you think the reason for this odd behaviour is ? I don't always accept that everything I read and everything I hear in beekeeping is gospel ...

 

[Anduril]

No need to get umpy ... I'm just interested as to what is going on ... so they have built drone comb in abundance this year .. are they on foundation or foundationless ? I see my comb being changed by the bees to serve both drone and worker brood - they are more than capable of tearing down and re-building comb to suit what they want. This is not humanising - just what I have observed.

I agree with you .. 20% is usually what I see in my foundationless frames .. occasionally, when the season is just getting going I see an increase in drone comb ... but never to 40%. It's unusual and I'm curious .. what do you think the reason for this odd behaviour is ? I don't always accept that everything I read and everything I hear in beekeeping is gospel ...

I'm not getting umpy, your second paragraph just didn't make any sensel if you don't mind me saying. I am not going to analyse what the bees are doing, these are foundationless frames and the bees are drawing out too much drone brood. Replace queen cut out some of the drone brood or remove altogether and watch what the next queen does.

 

[pargyle]

I'm not getting umpy, your second paragraph just didn't make any sensel if you don't mind me saying. I am not going to analyse what the bees are doing, these are foundationless frames and the bees are drawing out too much drone brood. Replace queen cut out some of the drone brood or remove altogether and watch what the next queen does.

OK ... The reason for my second para is that I've seen drone comb in my hives that has been where worker comb was previously and vice vera .. the bees must have been modifying comb ... What I don't know is whether they modify it because a queen has laid an unfertilised egg in a worker sized cell or whether the bees have modified a worker sized cell to a drone size and then the queen has dropped an unfertilisd egg in it. Nothing to do with humanising the bees ... it's something I've seen happen and it runs in the face of the books which state 'the queen measures the cell and then deposits an egg appropriate to the size of the cell'.

Or ... perhaps, foundationless comb is at times dual purpose ?

I can see where you are coming from in terms of sorting the issue out .. I know I'm a bit unconventional and in these circumstances I would be waiting to see what happens - but I'm certainly not criticising what you intend to do. It should resolve the problem of lots of drone comb ... but I can't help having this fascination for what the little beggars are up to !!

 

[Anduril]

OK ... The reason for my second para is that I've seen drone comb in my hives that has been where worker comb was previously and vice vera .. the bees must have been modifying comb ... What I don't know is whether they modify it because a queen has laid an unfertilised egg in a worker sized cell or whether the bees have modified a worker sized cell to a drone size and then the queen has dropped an unfertilisd egg in it. Nothing to do with humanising the bees ... it's something I've seen happen and it runs in the face of the books which state 'the queen measures the cell and then deposits an egg appropriate to the size of the cell'.

Or ... perhaps, foundationless comb is at times dual purpose ?

I can see where you are coming from in terms of sorting the issue out .. I know I'm a bit unconventional and in these circumstances I would be waiting to see what happens - but I'm certainly not criticising what you intend to do. It should resolve the problem of lots of drone comb ... but I can't help having this fascination for what the little beggars are up to !!

OK I see where you are coming from, but the workers are running the show not the queen. I haven't seen what you say with foundationless, maybe you should have measured the cell or cells. There will be tolerance levels regarding dimensions of cells, otherwise chaos would ensue. I have read about an experiment that scientists tried with the waggle dance. Apparently they only do the waggle dance on one section of comb, when they cut it out and transferred it to another part of the hive, when the workers came back to do the waggle dance they were confused because they had lost their dance floor. Later they did the waggle dance when they had found where it had been transferred.

 

[pargyle]

OK I see where you are coming from, but the workers are running the show not the queen. I haven't seen what you say with foundationless, maybe you should have measured the cell or cells. There will be tolerance levels regarding dimensions of cells, otherwise chaos would ensue. I have read about an experiment that scientists tried with the waggle dance. Apparently they only do the waggle dance on one section of comb, when they cut it out and transferred it to another part of the hive, when the workers came back to do the waggle dance they were confused because they had lost their dance floor. Later they did the waggle dance when they had found where it had been transferred.

I find it all quite fascinating ... there is so much we don't know about our bees but there is no real incentive for research as there is no pot of gold at the end of it .. and it's always been much the same - many of the innovations and explanations in beekeeping have come from amateurs and hobbyists.

I did do some cell measurements in the early days... trying to determine if bees that are buildng foundationless comb followed a 'small cell' dimension as per Dee Lusby... totally inconclusive I'm afraid ... Dave Cushman has quite a page on cell sizes ..

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/cellsize.html

Equally inconclusive... The only thing I find with my bees is that whatever they do it is usually not what I expected or when I expected it - part of the fascination really. It's a bit like a cryptic crossword with only half the clues ... when you get it it is so bloody obvious - but it takes a fair amount of head scratching to get there.... and even then youranswer might fit but be totally wrong !!

 

[Bosleeu]

I use a lot of foundationless frames don't mind if they decide to build some drone comb. They seem to sort the balance out in Autumn by kicking the drones out and raising workers for winter. Try putting new frames in the middle of the brood area - they seem to build more worker comb there and more drone comb towards the edges.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

[Leila]

I use a lot of foundationless frames don't mind if they decide to build some drone comb. They seem to sort the balance out in Autumn by kicking the drones out and raising workers for winter. Try putting new frames in the middle of the brood area - they seem to build more worker comb there and more drone comb towards the edges.

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

I think what bothered my mentor is the fact that our season is very short up here. By autumn it may be too late to balance out any anomalies. It's unpredictable. We can have summers that last until the end of September, or ones that come to a close with a big bang thunderstorm in the middle of August.
As usual, many ways to look at it and thank you so much for your input and experience. What I'll probably do is make a gradual switch to foundationless, rather than trying to do it all this year in my first year and the bees'. I personally think that bees are perfectly capable of creating what they need, but I don't want to alienated my mentor as I'm really relying on him. I don't want him to think that I feel I know better than him.
There quite obviously is no correct way and so much depends on the individual foibles of the colony and their queen, the local climate and available forage.... However, I really appreciate hearing different approaches and choosing my course of action, thankfully based on sound advice. I'm terrified of killing my girls!