Flying bees returning to garden

[Erichalfbee]

That’s the trick though. If you have other colonies adjacent then the returnees blag their way in to those. My problem is that my bait hives are 100 and 500metres from the apiary and I always get just enough returnees to be a nuisance

 

[eltalia]

I'm sure I'll be bashed for going against the grain as a beginner but its just my experience so far, good luck!

WHY is that..?.. your expectation?
Experienced same..?... as it is your *thing* in going against what
is known, written in stone?
0r are you posting a challenge?
Wrong subforum for that... this is beginners, where rightly
what is known to work for everyone should be the content
of posts.
That 3/3 rule..?.. it works, for _everyone_.

Nobody can be certain for sure as it is only you onsite buuut
for way more instances than n0t it has been my experience
where when told "0h there were n0 flyers" that remark has
come from not knowing, not looking 0r not knowing where to
look.
The are many methods to move bees, varied outcomes apply.
But one thing holds true... don't reset a forager's mapping plan
and there will be loss and/or drift.
It is that degree of drift which truly determines the success of
the shift. And frankly in many a year I have yet to meet or hear a
backyarder discuss this in any depth. Either it is n0t known
or n0t cared for, in knowing.

Forgive the presumption - supported by your posted outcome -
I have just read another. There are way way more than 30 foragers
in any colony running around after 10AM. Trust that.

Bill

 

[Eyeman]

If Tom Seeley needs to move his hives a short distance during his experiments at the new site he closes the hive for 4 days and feeds 'heavily'

 

[Beefriendly]

Seeley is forgetting some of his own early work that showed that bees still retained their directional knowledge of forage sites after overwintering (Wisdom of the Hive I think).
I had to turn a hive 90 degrees all in one go a week ago... and obviously the flyers all arrived to find no entrance where they expected one to be, but eventually they crawled around and in. Left them to it expecting them to have all re-orientated within a week.... but no, yesterday they were still arriving at the "old" entrance site but instead of looking around "as in where is it". they land and immediately walk around the side of the hive to the entrance. I was quite astonished. Watched them doing this for quite a while.

 

[Poly Hive]

I have done this short move deal a few times now and the trick for me is to leave them shut in for two days. With ventilation of course. Which is to say the mesh floor below and a travelling screen above.

After two nights let them free and no returnees.

Pretty simple, but no doubt someone will tell me otherwise.

PH

 

[maz0]

WHY is that..?.. your expectation?
Experienced same..?... as it is your *thing* in going against what
is known, written in stone?
0r are you posting a challenge?
Wrong subforum for that... this is beginners, where rightly
what is known to work for everyone should be the content
of posts.
That 3/3 rule..?.. it works, for _everyone_.

Nobody can be certain for sure as it is only you onsite buuut
for way more instances than n0t it has been my experience
where when told "0h there were n0 flyers" that remark has
come from not knowing, not looking 0r not knowing where to
look.
The are many methods to move bees, varied outcomes apply.
But one thing holds true... don't reset a forager's mapping plan
and there will be loss and/or drift.
It is that degree of drift which truly determines the success of
the shift. And frankly in many a year I have yet to meet or hear a
backyarder discuss this in any depth. Either it is n0t known
or n0t cared for, in knowing.

Forgive the presumption - supported by your posted outcome -
I have just read another. There are way way more than 30 foragers
in any colony running around after 10AM. Trust that.

Bill

Sorry but I really struggle to read your post...not sure why there are zero's randomly in words etc. If I get the jist of it, the OP is already aware of 3-3. He was asking for help in returning lost foragers which I tried to answer with my own experience of doing that type of hive move. Cheers

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

I have done this short move deal a few times now and the trick for me is to leave them shut in for two days. With ventilation of course. Which is to say the mesh floor below and a travelling screen above.

After two nights let them free and no returnees.

Pretty simple, but no doubt someone will tell me otherwise.

PH

PH - I am about to move 4 of my hives to a new site 0.92 miles away which is under shaded trees. Temperatures look like they will be in the 23-24C range here. I was going to take 2 hives one evening, deliver them and keep them sealed with mesh entrance cover, with OMF and full mesh crown board and then a roof. I can have a box at the original site just in case. Leave sealed for the night, next day, next night and then release them in the afternoon of the second day.

Sound OK?

 

[MartinL]

PH - I am about to move 4 of my hives to a new site 0.92 miles away

Let us know how you get on.
Maybe you could estimate the flyers before the move then 24 hours after letting em out at the new position?

Key is the amount lost from the hive at the new location, not what is casually observed during 5 minute peek at the old one.

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

Let us know how you get on.
Maybe you could estimate the flyers before the move then 24 hours after letting em out at the new position?

Key is the amount lost from the hive at the new location, not what is casually observed during 5 minute peek at the old one.

Isnt the logic that if you give the bees enough flying time in the day then once they emerge from the new location they will:

1. Fly "out"
2. Forage duties.
3. Fly "back"

There are four outcomes for "back":

1. New Location
2. Old location
3. Somewhere else
4. They perish

The important fact is that the beek wants 1. to be highest. The beek can also handle 2. because the bees can be collected and brought to the new site (perhaps to be added to a super above the hive and held again?)

Is your point that 3 and 4 could be major issue?

 

[MartinL]

There are four outcomes for "back":

1. New Location
2. Old location
3. Somewhere else
4. They perish

Is your point that 3 and 4 could be major issue?

Not Major,

but certainly a significant one that is ignored by the "make them think a tree has fallen over the entrance" brigade.

Note that 75% of your options above are lost to the new location.

 

[enrico]

Sorry but I really struggle to read your post...not sure why there are zero's randomly in words etc. If I get the jist of it, the OP is already aware of 3-3. He was asking for help in returning lost foragers which I tried to answer with my own experience of doing that type of hive move. Cheers

I think he has a sticky caps key on the o making it an O or he just likes being annoying. I have given up trying to ask him to use plain English which is a pity because he has good knowledge but I just can't be bothered deciphering it any more. Time is too precious.
E

 

[maz0]

Isnt the logic that if you give the bees enough flying time in the day then once they emerge from the new location they will:

1. Fly "out"
2. Forage duties.
3. Fly "back"

There are four outcomes for "back":

1. New Location
2. Old location
3. Somewhere else
4. They perish

The important fact is that the beek wants 1. to be highest. The beek can also handle 2. because the bees can be collected and brought to the new site (perhaps to be added to a super above the hive and held again?)

Is your point that 3 and 4 could be major issue?

From my understanding, the issue is familiar visual cross over between the locations. Older foragers will have a stronger familiarity with their foraging route, even after re-orientation from the fallen tree method and will recognise their old flight paths and have a strong tendency to return to the old hive location. The new foragers will have less an ingrained memory of the surroundings and will adapt to the new location easier. So it's even less of an issue than worrying about all of the foragers.

I think there are some people who are so against the idea of the process they would not be satisfied without doing a before and after count, but each to their own! All the best!

 

[WalnutTreeBees]

THE answer is "for as long as it takes the sun's azimuth to
significanty shift, usually around two days in fine weather".
Yet you can move them across the yard or across a field in the one day
following that same use of the principle, with a twist.
NO leaves/branches/twigs "leave a box behind" BS needed.
Tom should have moved them 3 miles, or whatever...a longer way off.

Bill

Interesting, thank you.

 

[eltalia]

Interesting, thank you.

No worries... much of what is posted reflects no more than populist
'thinking'(loose use). Our business was as a migratory pollinator.
Should we not have owned proven methods returning balanced
colonies onsite there would have been no bacon on the table
come Sundays. Heh

Bill

 

[MartinL]

I think .. .. ..

or he just likes being annoying.

I think he's annoying.

After all, just look where he claims to live??

Spends all day swatting flies, then only dodgy lager or cheap wine to numb the brain before it all starts again.
Everyone would become a little annoying in those circumstances!

 

[maz0]

Our business was as a migratory pollinator.
Bill

And in there lays the important point, you were a business, you had to act like a business, you had the extended options and facilities available as a business. For the small fry who are not a business and do not have the option of moving 3 miles what do you say then? do you just repeat yourself 'got to be 3 miles' or just tell them to leave the hives where they are, which might be a worse situation than losing a few dozen bee's?

Nobody said 3 miles doesn't work, but in my case and perhaps the OP's he didn't have that option, which would appear to make your expertise in the situation redundant?

 

[eltalia]

And in there lays the important point, you were a business, you had to act like a business, you had the extended options and facilities available as a business. For the small fry who are not a business and do not have the option of moving 3 miles what do you say then? do you just repeat yourself 'got to be 3 miles' or just tell them to leave the hives where they are, which might be a worse situation than losing a few dozen bee's?

Nobody said 3 miles doesn't work, but in my case and perhaps the OP's he didn't have that option, which would appear to make your expertise in the situation redundant?

The answer to short shift is simple enough, we had to develop that
also as there are a number of instances a colony or group of colonys
has to be moved around the yard. I've even 'said' as much earlier;
"Yet you can move them across the yard or across a field in the one day
following that same use of the principle, with a twist."
And...
Extract the thought c'mrcl and b'yard are disconnected somehow and
toss it - as for the beekeeper all that is different is the capital invested
IF one follows principle, principle set by the science.
Help?

Bill

 

[Poly Hive]

From what I am reading there is no expertise. End of. A two hive "owner" from a very different climate talking rubbish.

As said above it is quite possible to achieve the move far less than three miles with a little preparation. KISS

PH

 

[MartinL]

From what I am reading there is no expertise. End of. A two hive "owner" from a very different climate talking rubbish.

Always thought Australia was 12 hours ahead of UK (and in the middle of winter by now)? He must be a terrible insomniac, or perhaps closer to the UK than he claims?
Bet we see his hive numbers take a hike soon?

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

Three hives moved 0.92 miles. One each day.

Hive 1 calm hive ...closed entrance with mesh and crown board replaced with mesh. OMF

Hive 2 nasty hive same as above. OMF

Hive 3 Paynes NUC with just entrance clsoed with mesh.

Note: no grass or twigs across entrance.

Left hive 1 for 2 days. High bee losses. Had to shake floor free of hundreds of bees No original site (OS) returns.

Left hive 2 for 24 hours. Very little returns to OS. Minimal losses (a few as one would expect). Utter killing machines 50 to 100 in attack formation. Haveny enjoyed the disruption one bit.

Left hive 3 and opened. All good, minimal losses.

Conclusion 24 hours for 1 mile is good. Difficult to know what "field" losses there are. In future will simply stick with 24 hour "lock - in".

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