First post from Sussex

[OrchardBees]

Hello, I'm looking forward to reading through the forum over the course of the next couple of weeks, there's so much information here!

I got my first bees three weeks ago, and they came with the parts to make two national hives (14x12 brood boxes, which threw me. I ordered normal frames to fill the box. Lesson learned – always check before buying).

I've since had to merge them when one lost its queen. They were both small, only on two frames each and I really want them strong enough to survive the winter. I don't expect any honey this year. I checked them this morning and they're going great guns. Loads of brood and drawing the combs nicely.

I've just bought about 5-6 hives' worth of secondhand bits and pieces. This is addictive! I'm planning on spending the winter cleaning, sterilising and refurbishing them.

 

[drex]

So a total of four frames of bees or brood? In a box. What sort of box and how many frames have you in it? How did you know one colony lost its queen? Trying to make helpful suggestions as way forward but need more info.

 

[OrchardBees]

I had two lots of two 14x12 frames, put into two brood boxes in two hives. One was a split from the person who gave them to me, and came with a queen – we saw her on the first day, he said she was only a few days old. I didn't get a good look at what was under all the bees (now, I'd move them but it was the first time I'd ever handled bees). I took a photo, but it's not great.

The second was a small cast swarm, we saw the queen and there were larvae and eggs but nothing capped.

After two weeks, the first hive had capped drone brood, no visible queen and several empty queen cups.

Someone from my local association came and had a look for me, and suggested merging them. Today they look like this

 

[OrchardBees]

Ok, the photos didn't show. This is today's. If it works, I'll post the others

 

[OrchardBees]

Hive 1, first day

Hive 2, first day

Hive 1, a week later

 

[OrchardBees]

Sorry, still getting to grips with the photos. 600x600 isn't really enough to get the detail in. Mods, please feel free to delete/adjust/send advice!

 

[drex]

Good that you are in touch with local association. Your reply is not very helpful, but it looks like you have some capped worker brood, however, possibly not that many bees. I would dummy them down and give them a bit of TLC to encourage build up

 

[pargyle]

Firstly, looks like you've had a bit of a baptism of fire in your first few weeks of beekeeping.

I've a couple of questions.comments, the answers to which may be helpful:

1. Two frames of bees is not enough to put in a full hive, it's far too much space for them to cope with - particularly 14 x 12 (they are BIG boxes). They should have either been kept in Nucleus boxes or the full hive dummied down to four frames.

2. Did you have any frames of stores that came with them - if not, did you feed them ?

3. The first hive had a newly emerged queen, a virgin, she would need to go on a mating flight - which can be any time from one to fifteen days depending on weather and the point when the new queen is ready. It can be several days (sometimes two or three weeks !) before the new queen starts to lay. It doesn't make sense that there were eggs and larvae unless she was not newly emerged and was a mated queen. Did the person who gave them to you tell you she was mated.

4. A caste swarm normally has a virgin in it so - again - either you had a small swarm with a mated queen or it's not a caste.

5. How did you determine that Hive 1 was queenless ? Looking at your photo it looks to me as though there are eggs as well as a small amout of capped brood in the photos - I can't enlarge them so I'm not sure whether it is eggs or refections from nectar store.

None of this is intended to be critical of what you have done.. beekeeping is a very steep learning curve even when you have got into the craft gently. But ... what's done is done - all you can do now is make sure they have sufficient stores to survive, if there are only a few bees in there then dummy the hive down to a few frames and just expand the hive as the colony expands and the queen has some space to lay (if she continues to lay) give them a frame at a time as they need it. Try and avoid too many inspections - bees have a habit of sorting themselves out when we have interefered with them and sometimes the best thing you can do is let them get on with it.

Forget honey for the time being or any prospect of putting supers on. Make sure any holes in the crown board are covered over and if you can put a slab of insulatiin under the roof that will keep them nice and snug so less effort to keep the new brood warm.

Good luck.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I had two lots of two 14x12 frames, put into two brood boxes in two hives. One was a split from the person who gave them to me, and came with a queen – we saw her on the first day, he said she was only a few days old. I didn't get a good look at what was under all the bees (now, I'd move them but it was the first time I'd ever handled bees). I took a photo, but it's not great.

The second was a small cast swarm, we saw the queen and there were larvae and eggs but nothing capped.

After two weeks, the first hive had capped drone brood, no visible queen and several empty queen cups.

Someone from my local association came and had a look for me, and suggested merging them. Today they look like this

Welcome to the madhouse.
Oh dear the ubiquitous "someone from our association giving guidance". There are widely assorted competencies out there.
Let's try and pick the bones out of the story.
I see Pargyle has responded but here's my thoughts.
First you mention 14 x 12 hives. I like these but they are cavernous to a tiny colony. I'd have positioned the frames with bees on that you obtained, warm way towards the entrance with a frame of foundation either side and a dummy board to limit the space you are expecting them to draw comb in. As they draw out the frames of foundation you can move the dummy board out to expand the working space.
Making wax requires fuel so feed a few litres of thin syrup unless there's lots of available nectar.
It's a matter of definition but to me a cast swarm is one which issues from the parent hive AFTER the original queen of the parent hive has left with half the colony, leaving capped queen cells with one (or more) of the queen cells producing a virgin queen who swarms with half the remaining bees and so on with each cast depleting the original colony. On that basis if your swarm colony (2) has produced eggs and larvae it now contains a mated queen.
I'd be more concerned about colony (1) in which you said you saw the queen in once. It's now got capped drone brood and open queen cups. Is there any worker brood/grubs/eggs? Not seeing the queen isn't critical if there are fresh eggs, grubs and capped worker brood. Drone brood in a colony is ok as long as it's only a proportion of the total.
The queen cups are just that and bees build them for play. Only when the cup is charged with a glob of white jelly and an egg is laid in it does it become a queen cell, indicating the bees are preparing to swarm. At that stage you have to take action. There are alternative methods but I'd suggest pagden artificial swarm as a good place to start. Search YouTube for Patten AS
You have discovered how steep the learning curve of beekeeping can be. It's unfortunate that personal contact is precluded by the corvid 19 restrictions but with sufficient detail we can probably provide guidance to get you through until restrictions ease.

 

[OrchardBees]

Thank you all for the helpful comments. I haven't made a very good first impression, with my lack of knowledge/terminology, ginormous photos and inability to delete posts, sorry. I was going by what I'd been told when the bees arrived. It all happened very quickly and I was rather thrown in at the deep end. It has been a steep learning curve, you're right, but I'm loving it.

Colony 1 looked ok when it arrived, albeit small and hungry. I knew they had too much space, but didn't have any dummy boards, so I put frames in, thinking it was better than a void. Not optimal, I know. I fed 1:1 sugar syrup and they perked up very quickly. I wasn't really worried about them until the second inspection.

I was told colony 2 was a new cast swarm, but it had eggs and larvae, so the timing isn't right for that. Again, no dummy boards, so I added frames, and fed them.

I fed both until they stopped taking it (it was that week of colder weather).

The second inspection showed colony one in a worse state. No visible queen, only scattered capped drone brood and multiple eggs in cells – or was it reflections? Worried, I asked someone to come and look. They suggested merging them, and colony two was doing really well. It had drawn a couple of the closest of the new frames and had good mixed brood.

The merge seems to have gone well; there are maybe nine combs well covered with bees, mixed brood, pollen and stores, and they are drawing a couple of the other frames. I was told to put the two frames from colony one at either end, so they are working inwards and colony two is working out towards them. Was that sensible? When I next inspect, should I take out any undrawn frames and put the dummy board(s) in to consolidate them, or leave them to carry on? I guess I won't know that until I see how far they've gone?

I really appreciate you taking the time to help, thank you.

 

[drex]

Frames with brood need to be together. From the centre out it should be brood, pollen honey, but rarely are frames that well defined. I suggest you do not split up the brood nest until you have some experience. Nine frames covered with bees, so you might as well leave any other frames in ( I expect your definition of "well covered" will change with time) . Do get a dummy board, it makes inspection much easier. Enjoy this wonderful hobby. You are doing ok.

 

[Heather]

Welcome Orchard bee.. have you joined an Assoc, as advice always forthcoming from them/us. If you are near Brighton, look us up.. good luck.
Ah just noted you are with an Assoc. sorry.. but pics look good, healthy brood. And it's a huge learning curve for the first 2 years, then settles. Just be gentle with them and they will be with you... and if they are not, that is your warning that they have a problem.. so listen to them.good luck, and enjoy!

 

[OrchardBees]

Thanks Heather. They are very placid, a joy to handle (so far!). I'm being really gentle with them and despite the dodgy start, I'm loving it

 

[pargyle]

Thanks Heather. They are very placid, a joy to handle (so far!). I'm being really gentle with them and despite the dodgy start, I'm loving it

For future reference: Get yourself a sheet of Celotex or Kingspan (usually found in builders skips but if you are desperate the likes of Wickes sell it):

https://www.wickes.co.uk/Kingspan-T...x-25mm/p/180435?_br_psugg_q=insulation+boards

Smaller sheets are available.

And some aluminium tape:

https://www.toolstation.com/aluminium-foil-tape/p81953

You can dummy down with slabs of Celotex (you need to seal the cut edges with the aluminium tape or the bees will mine into it) and it's really good to put a slab above the crownboard under the roof.

The aluminium tape is always in my bee box - uses everything from patching an unfortunate hole in my trousers that the bees can get in through to sealing them in when you need to - so many uses, the bees can't eat through it, it sticks to anything, with a coat of paint over it it's almost totally weather proof. I wouldn't be without it.

 

[OrchardBees]

Thank you, I have both of those. If only I'd known. I'm being patient and not going back into them too soon, but when I do, if there's space that needs filling, I'll be able to do it.

 

[pargyle]

Thank you, I have both of those. If only I'd known. I'm being patient and not going back into them too soon, but when I do, if there's space that needs filling, I'll be able to do it.

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=21943&page=223

Post #2222

Make some up in readiness ....

 

[OrchardBees]

Perfect, thanks. I even have an old cot. Should I have insulation in now? I went to do the chickens last night and I was cold in shorts and a T-shirt

 

[pargyle]

Perfect, thanks. I even have an old cot. Should I have insulation in now? I went to do the chickens last night and I was cold in shorts and a T-shirt

Most of us keep the insulation on all year round - allows the bees to maintain the hive at the temperature they want all the year round - warm in winter and occasionally cool in summer. I actually have a super on top of all my hives, above the crown board and below the roof which is filled with insulation. I also have polystyrene hives.

In my experience (and there will be those who will contradict me) I have found that bees thrive better during the season, have lower levels of varroa and overwinter using less stores and without disease if they are well insulated.

It's not a new thing - the benefits of a well insulated environment for keeping bees has been well known for a long time - modern insulation materials have made changes but look at WBC hives - invented by William Broughton Carr in the 1800's - the space between the hives and the outer lifts provided cooling in the summer and was packed with straw for warmth in the winter.

It's only reinvention of the wheel and people who try to defy the laws of physics that believe being hard on your bees is good for them.

Derek will be along shortly to tell you the best hive for the bees is a cavity in a tree trunk - he's probably right but not very convenient for the beekeeper.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Thank you all for the helpful comments. I haven't made a very good first impression, with my lack of knowledge/terminology, ginormous photos and inability to delete posts, sorry. I was going by what I'd been told when the bees arrived. It all happened very quickly and I was rather thrown in at the deep end. It has been a steep learning curve, you're right, but I'm loving it.

Colony 1 looked ok when it arrived, albeit small and hungry. I knew they had too much space, but didn't have any dummy boards, so I put frames in, thinking it was better than a void. Not optimal, I know. I fed 1:1 sugar syrup and they perked up very quickly. I wasn't really worried about them until the second inspection.

I was told colony 2 was a new cast swarm, but it had eggs and larvae, so the timing isn't right for that. Again, no dummy boards, so I added frames, and fed them.

I fed both until they stopped taking it (it was that week of colder weather).

The second inspection showed colony one in a worse state. No visible queen, only scattered capped drone brood and multiple eggs in cells – or was it reflections? Worried, I asked someone to come and look. They suggested merging them, and colony two was doing really well. It had drawn a couple of the closest of the new frames and had good mixed brood.

The merge seems to have gone well; there are maybe nine combs well covered with bees, mixed brood, pollen and stores, and they are drawing a couple of the other frames. I was told to put the two frames from colony one at either end, so they are working inwards and colony two is working out towards them. Was that sensible? When I next inspect, should I take out any undrawn frames and put the dummy board(s) in to consolidate them, or leave them to carry on? I guess I won't know that until I see how far they've gone?

I really appreciate you taking the time to help, thank you.

Well in the circumstances of choosing between putting a couple of frames into an empty box and having no dummy boards I'd have used frames of foundation to fill the empty space too. But I'd have made it a priority to get some dummies and go back asap. Water under the bridge now.
If I'm reading you correctly you now have one hive with bees in it. These bees being from both colonies.
What method of uniting did you use? Unless it was cast iron certain one hive was queen less there was a distinct possibilityof a battle Royal between the queens. Fingers crossed the good queen won if that happened.
You now have 9 frames of bees with comb including brood it seems. If these are all in one box you might as well leave them to get on with drawing the remainder (guessing you have an 11 frame box).
Next inspection will show if things are going well or if you need to ask for more help.