Failed prime swarm - Resolution?

[Dan Job]

All,

I inspected today and discovered what I think was a failed prime swarm.

No queen seen, no eggs, capped queen cells.

There were masses of bees and I'm pretty sure the parent queen was clipped. I thinned QC's to one and as a precaution took a three frame split inc. QC with a shake of bees off an extra two frames into a poly nuc. Left on different location at same apiary so flyers will return.

Any comments or advice for dealing with a similar situation in the future?

Thanks
Dan

 

[Hivemaker.]

All,

I inspected today and discovered what I think was a failed prime swarm.

No queen seen, no eggs, capped queen cells.

There were masses of bees and I'm pretty sure the parent queen was clipped. I thinned QC's to one and as a precaution took a three frame split inc. QC with a shake of bees off an extra two frames into a poly nuc. Left on different location at same apiary so flyers will return.

Any comments or advice for dealing with a similar situation in the future?

Thanks
Dan

I deal with that in a slightly different way, providing there are still eggs or very small larvae I break down all the queen cells, the following week I again destroy all the queen cells and add a marked frame of eggs, next visit only one frame to check, cells destroyed on that comb, and new clipped queen introduced.

 

[Dan Job]

Thanks HM

 

[beeno]

Seven day inspection schedule.

 

[MuswellMetro]

All,

I inspected today and discovered what I think was a failed prime swarm.

No queen seen, no eggs, capped queen cells.

There were masses of bees and I'm pretty sure the parent queen was clipped. I thinned QC's to one and as a precaution took a three frame split inc. QC with a shake of bees off an extra two frames into a poly nuc. Left on different location at same apiary so flyers will return.

Any comments or advice for dealing with a similar situation in the future?

Thanks
Dan

I often find clipped queens are not forced out when a queen cells is capped, my swarm control this year has been clipping and 10 days inspections

 

[Finman]

.
You need to do an AS, that you get swarming fever off.
Then bees start to forage normally.

Now you use queen cells in AS.

In clipped queen case " no eggs or no young larvae " tells that clipping has worked. If you see emerged queen cells, then it us a sign, that you have lost a big swarm.

 

[Finman]

I often find clipped queens are not forced out when a queen cells is capped, my swarm control this year has been clipping and 10 days inspections

What I learned in this forum is, that swarmed clipped queen can return often to the hive. Present laying queen is not a sign that it has not tried to swarm.

If you want to loose your laying queen, then use 10 days inspection rhytm. I use however a week rhytm.

.

 

[Finman]

Seven day inspection schedule.

Correct!.... Not 10 days.

 

[Dan Job]

.
You need to do an AS, that you get swarming fever off.
Then bees start to forage normally.

Now you use queen cells in AS.

In clipped queen case " no eggs or no young larvae " tells that clipping has worked. If you see emerged queen cells, then it us a sign, that you have lost a big swarm.

No emerged cell. And I'm pretty sure 99% the queen was not there

I understand that I need them to loose swarm fever, but with only one QC won't they settle down after the process of new Q hatching/mated and beginning to lay?

I didn't want to loose the strength of the colony by completely splitting the flying bees from brood unless absolutely necessary. And with original Q gone my thoughts were they had the proceed of new Q emerging maturing and laying would suppress the swarm fever is this right or wrong. I can understand HM's process of knocking them all down and allowing them to raise new Q from eggs would suppress fever then inserting a young laying Q with strong pheromones.

I suppose I should have asked, might they still swarm on emergence of only QC I left leaving a doomed colony behind? Or might they just go straight into swarming mode again after new Q is mated?

 

[beeno]

I suppose I should have asked, might they still swarm on emergence of only QC I left leaving a doomed colony behind? Or might they just go straight into swarming mode again after new Q is mated?

Yes, do start a new thread with that!

 

[Finman]

No emerged cell. And I'm pretty sure 99% the queen was not there

I understand that I need them to loose swarm fever, but with only one QC won't they settle down after...

I didn't want to loose the strength of the colony by completely splitting the flying bees from brood unless absolutely necessary. ?

You do wrong, but a little bit respect on experience in beekeeping is not harmful thing to you.

I bet that you loose a swarm when that queen cell emerges.
Swarm control would be very easy if it would go that way.
.

 

[Dan Job]

I bet that you loose a swarm when that queen cell emerges.
.

Exactly the purpose of my 'extra' questions. To ascertain if my actions would result in success or if I should take further action. I can easily pop back in the hive and move the rest of the capped brood to join the three frame split leaving just one frame with QC and the rest foundation.

The other option I see is move to step 2 of HM's recommendation. Knock Down the QC and give them a frame of eggs. By the time they have raised another round of QC's which are about to emerge I could then introduce another laying queen.

Dan

 

[Finman]

Biggest problem in those "one queen cell" cases is that there is a hidden queen cell somewhere, and swarm can go.

But you should do an AS with foundations.

 

[Gribbee]

I think step 2 of HM's recommendation is just a test frame to ensure there is no Q present.
If qc's are produced on this frame you should destroy them, then introduce your laying queen. No need to wait until they are about to emerge.

 

[Eyeman]

The situation you describe happens quite often especially if you inspect at 10 day intervals with a clipped queen.
I had the same situation the other day with no eggs and lots of young larvae and no clipped queen seen. I play safe and do a Snellgrove 2 and only leave one QC with the brood. 10 days later if its torn down I try again to find the queen otherwise if its emerged or capped I let them get on and raise a new queen.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I think step 2 of HM's recommendation is just a test frame to ensure there is no Q present.
If qc's are produced on this frame you should destroy them, then introduce your laying queen. No need to wait until they are about to emerge.

Stage two tends to ensure they are q-, keep them working, allows time for most of the other brood to emerge, leaving plenty of laying space for the new queen, but more important it tends to also get them over their swarming impulse.

 

[Dan Job]

I think step 2 of HM's recommendation is just a test frame to ensure there is no Q present.
No need to wait until they are about to emerge.

I assumed it was for same reason modified snelgrove 2 as per wally shaw suggests waiting until bees are expecting new queen to emerge. To aid acceptance and simulate that the bees have raised a new queen?

Finman, we all know if a second hidden cell was in there that the bees would likely swarm with the first one out. I did give the colony a very thorough going through bees shaken off every frame except the frame with chosen cell which were gently brushed off.

So I suppose we are back to my 'extra' questions. Will a colony issue a cast swarm and leave the parent colony hopelessly queenless. e.g. Swarm with the only virgin?

 

[Dan Job]

but more important it tends to also get them over their swarming impulse.

Frame of eggs it is then!

 

[Finman]

So I suppose we are back to my 'extra' questions. Will a colony issue a cast swarm and leave the parent colony hopelessly queenless. e.g. Swarm with the only virgin?

With that system you make only a big mess. Really wrong way.
But as stubborn person you just try and see what happens. Your bees.

 

[Obee1]

So finny what are you saying is the correct way? A proper a/s separating flyers from brood - put the one QC in the middle of a box of foundation on the original site? All the rest of the hive on new site 10 feet away. Supers go where? Forget keeping a few frames and QC in a nuc?
Is that what you would do?