Emerged queens not laying, and nowhere to lay.

[Uncle Betty]

On the 7th, I left a single sealed queen cell with the brood side of an A/S.

The 'swarm' had tried to get away a couple of days after I did the A/S, so on the 7th I gave them a sealed queen cell too, and took the queen away to a nuc.

Today I went in to have my first look.

Neither queen is in lay, and she wouldn't have anywhere to go anyway. Wall to wall food in both brood boxes, but with plenty super space above.

Does this packed brood box situation indicate anything either good or bad about HM's prospects ?

Could they very quickly clear out for her, or have they given up on her ?

Should I leave alone for a week and look again, or is there cause for alarm ?

Thanks.

 

[Uncle Betty]

Sorry, forgot to add - I didn't actually see either queen.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I would remove two or even three frames of stores from each colony. If you can take a frame of pollen without leaving them short it can go in the freezer for when they might be short. Replace with foundation or a wired frame with a starter strip. I find that an empty frame is drawn quicker in these circumstances and the queen should be on it like a shot.........if she is there.
20 days is no time really so remove those frames and look again in a week.
I would be putting in a test frame in two weeks if still no evidence of a queen

 

[Uncle Betty]

I would remove two or even three frames of stores from each colony. If you can take a frame of pollen without leaving them short it can go in the freezer for when they might be short. Replace with foundation or a wired frame with a starter strip. I find that an empty frame is drawn quicker in these circumstances and the queen should be on it like a shot.........if she is there.
20 days is no time really so remove those frames and look again in a week.
I would be putting in a test frame in two weeks if still no evidence of a queen

Feel better already, thought we were against the clock after the three weeks that have passed, having been such good weather.

Will do as you suggest, thanks.

 

[Nige.Coll]

Wall to wall food I would suspect they are Q-.

 

[Uncle Betty]

Wall to wall food I would suspect they are Q-.

That's what I'm afraid of. Just like my luck that neither of them succeeded.

I've already heeded Erichalfbee's advice and swapped out three frames from each, for foundation.

I'm now left with the original queen in a dummied box, and she isn't exactly going like the clappers. I saw today she has laid some eggs, I wonder should I drop in a test frame from her to one of the splits, and a second one to the other split in a couple of days time when she has laid a different frame ?

My other colony, the queen just disappeared and I left them a single open queen cell eight days ago, so no help from there.

 

[Nige.Coll]

Test frame would tell you a lot.
I find with my bees if there is a queen of any kind present they leave some clear space and polish the cells ready.
In my experience they only fill the brood nest with food when no queen is there. They may not draw comb without a queen either or draw it very slowly.

 

[Uncle Betty]

Test frame would tell you a lot.
I find with my bees if there is a queen of any kind present they leave some clear space and polish the cells ready.
In my experience they only fill the brood nest with food when no queen is there. They may not draw comb without a queen either or draw it very slowly.

OK, thanks for that.

It's the problem of starting out with only a couple of colonies, that every frame is precious and there's not a lot of room to manouevre.

I only have available one frame with eggs, and that from a half-strength colony, but perhaps needs must.

Possibly I should strike while the iron is hot - the way things are going I mightn't have a frame of eggs to throw around, a week on.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Bees have very little invested in eggs. If you remove them the queen will make the loss up in no time at all. It's capped brood that is much more valuable to them. So take the eggs and put yourself out of misery
You should be able to tell in three days whether they are drawing queen cells.
If they just cap the brood you can always shake the bees off and put it back.
Let us know how it goes

 

[Swarm]

When you did your inspection, what was the condition of those sealed cells you left? Did they show typical signs they emerged? I wouldn't be taking eggs from a weak colony.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I wouldn't be taking eggs from a weak colony.

Ah....I didn't notice the "and that from a half-strength colony"
Just a few cut out would be OK?

 

[Swarm]

OP hasn't confirmed that the virgins emerged and both were sealed so no idea they were viable. I think I'd concentrate on the Q+ colony and see what happens with the others and then consider combining if they are Q-

 

[Uncle Betty]

OP hasn't confirmed that the virgins emerged and both were sealed so no idea they were viable. I think I'd concentrate on the Q+ colony and see what happens with the others and then consider combining if they are Q-

That's right. They were very jittery yesterday on the comb and I didn't want to faff about looking for a queen when all I wanted to quickly see was eggs.

We had had poor weather for almost a fortnight so that the first chance I got to inspect (April 28th) was twelve days on from previous. My queen is clipped and marked so I was ok with that as there were no QC's previously.

I was faced with lots of capped cells, and none uncapped that I could see. So I went for the 'dimpled' look and hoped for the best. There were still no uncapped cells five days on.

Yesterday, I looked at the queen cells themselves as I had marked the frames. One has been fairly well demolished, the other is neatly open at the end.

Met a very experienced man this morning and he thinks there's still hope. There's a great flow on at the moment, they're dumping nectar all over the place, and they'll shift it up when they're ready. They have room to do so.

Give all that, could someone give me a timeline, which I will strictly adhere to, please.

1. When to look again ?

2. If still no good then, when to pull the plug and go for a unite of old queen and one of the (?) colonies, or of her with both of them ?

3. Since I'd rather have two colonies on single brood, I could introduce a queen from somewhere to one, and unite the other to old queen at the same time, yes ?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Nige.Coll]

If you decide to unite any of them with the queen right colony you MUST make sure there isn't a virgin queen in there. It will kill your mated laying queen if there is.
If you can't be 100% sure then put them next to the Q+ colony for a few days and then shake them out on the floor a short distance away.

Keep an eye out for polished cells, some think it's daft but every colony that has had polished cells after a queen has emerged in my experience has had a queen and started laying.

You have about 4 weeks from when she emerged, longer than that and the chance of her being a drone layer is greatly increased.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I give them six weeks from emerging. I have had them come into lay after that long. BUT that's it six weeks. No more. Then its hunt the queen

 

[Uncle Betty]

Wow, ok people, thanks for those thoughts. Hope lives on. I might split the difference and leave them another two weeks which would be c.5 weeks on.

Am also worried about laying workers. What would be your thoughts and experiences there ?

Thanks again, really appreciate it.

 

[mbc]

I raise hundreds of queens a season, most for myself but some for sale and I make it a rule that I don't check for a new queen laying for three weeks after emergence, anything sooner is more often than not a wasted effort in my experience, even if the virgin has got mated and started laying it's not often that the brood is sealed and the queen ready for assessment.

 

[Uncle Betty]

I raise hundreds of queens a season, most for myself but some for sale and I make it a rule that I don't check for a new queen laying for three weeks after emergence, anything sooner is more often than not a wasted effort in my experience, even if the virgin has got mated and started laying it's not often that the brood is sealed and the queen ready for assessment.

Thanks for that.

Would you read anything into the fact that brood boxes are chock full of stores at this point ?

 

[mbc]

Would you read anything into the fact that brood boxes are chock full of stores at this point ?

No, when a virgin gets mated and starts coming into lay they rearrange a nest for her with ease (if there are plenty of bees to do the moving around).

 

[Nige.Coll]

They can certainly move some stuff about when the time comes.