Drone Laying Queen or Laying Workers

[Adamski20]

Hi All

Your help would be greatly appreciated. Trying to work out if I have a drone laying queen or laying workers. Some pics attached and description below.

Location is Stirlingshire, Scotland. Weather for most of this year has been absolutely dismal. Max temperature didn't rise above 15c until 30th April. Avg max temps Jan = 5, Feb = 6, Mar = 8, Apr = 11, May = 14, Jun = 16, Jul = 18, Aug = 17. There has been rain for more than half of the days in each month. No. of days rain Apr = 20, May = 16, Jun = 17, Jul = 22, Aug = 15.

The hive took me by surprise with a swarm very early in the year (especially considering the weather/temps). I estimate they swarmed around 13th April.. New queen started laying between 15th and 23rd May. She was initially laying very well. Lots of eggs, eggs nicely centered in bottom of cells, good pattern.

30th July I started to notice some eggs were on the sides of the cells rather than centered in the bottom. Single eggs per cell. Lots of BIAS, mix of worker and drone.

weekly inspections looked pretty normal, queen present, eggs and BIAS, single eggs per cell, increasing amount of drone. Still eggs on sides of cells. They had plenty of space in supers for stores but were still packing nectar and pollen into brood frames.

12th Aug much reduced amount of BIAS. capped brood is mainly drone brood. Queen still present. Eggs on sides of vast majority of cells. vast majority single egg per cell, very occasionally two eggs in a cell. There are no eggs above the queen excluder.

Clearly something is not right. But i can't decide if it is drone laying queen or laying workers. The fact that the eggs are on the side of the cells makes me thing laying worker. But the fact that the queen is still present, the majority are single egg per cell, and that there are no eggs above the QE makes me think drone laying queen (possibly not well mated due to taking mating flight so early in season).

What do you think? Drone laying queen or laying workers?

***Edit: added some photos showing brood as requested by jenkinsbrynmair, this is pretty much all the brood there is in there now. There are still plenty of bees, all the brood frames were fully covered with bees (removed most of the bees to get the pictures) and the frames in the super are about 75% covered with bees. only 1 super on which is all drawn foundation and probably has around 50% space still. I had put a second super on about 3 weeks ago that was all undrawn foundation but they hadn't touched it at all so have removed it for now in case another hive needs it.

Interestingly, whilst I was taking these photos I saw the queen lay, or possibly just attempt to lay an egg in a cell. She stuck her head into a cell to have a look, then moved forward and positioned her abdomen over the cell and reverse parked her but into the cell so that her head and part of thorax were protruding. She was in there for maybe 10 seconds or so and then she came back out and wandered off. I tried looking to see if there was an egg. Problem is I wasn't 100% sure exactly which cell she came out of, difficult to keep track with the other bees coming and going. I looked in all the cells in around a 5cm or 6cm diameter of where she was, the cells all had either a single egg on the side of the cell, or had no egg. So I can't be sure if she layed an egg (in which case she did on the side of the cell) or if she failed to lay an egg (possibly disturbed my my ugly mug staring at her!).

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

a photograph of capped brood would be a big help.

 

[Adamski20]

a photograph of capped brood would be a big help.

I'll pop out and get a pic this afternoon.

That line in your signature "being a beekeeper is alike being an expert in feelings of panic, relief and despair interspersed with brief moments of deep joy and contentment" that is absolutely spot on!

 

[Antipodes]

Hi All

Your help would be greatly appreciated. Trying to work out if I have a drone laying queen or laying workers. Some pics attached and description below.

Location is Stirlingshire, Scotland. Weather for most of this year has been absolutely dismal. Max temperature didn't rise above 15c until 30th April. Avg max temps Jan = 5, Feb = 6, Mar = 8, Apr = 11, May = 14, Jun = 16, Jul = 18, Aug = 17. There has been rain for more than half of the days in each month. No. of days rain Apr = 20, May = 16, Jun = 17, Jul = 22, Aug = 15.

The hive took me by surprise with a swarm very early in the year (especially considering the weather/temps). I estimate they swarmed around 13th April.. New queen started laying between 15th and 23rd May. She was initially laying very well. Lots of eggs, eggs nicely centered in bottom of cells, good pattern.

30th July I started to notice some eggs were on the sides of the cells rather than centered in the bottom. Single eggs per cell. Lots of BIAS, mix of worker and drone.

weekly inspections looked pretty normal, queen present, eggs and BIAS, single eggs per cell, increasing amount of drone. Still eggs on sides of cells. They had plenty of space in supers for stores but were still packing nectar and pollen into brood frames.

12th Aug much reduced amount of BIAS. capped brood is mainly drone brood. Queen still present. Eggs on sides of vast majority of cells. vast majority single egg per cell, very occasionally two eggs in a cell. There are no eggs above the queen excluder.

Clearly something is not right. But i can't decide if it is drone laying queen or laying workers. The fact that the eggs are on the side of the cells makes me thing laying worker. But the fact that the queen is still present, the majority are single egg per cell, and that there are no eggs above the QE makes me think drone laying queen (possibly not well mated due to taking mating flight so early in season).

What do you think? Drone laying queen or laying workers?

In Point 6 in this document (under the heading "Symptoms") there is mention made of something similar perhaps?

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/rogerpatterson.html

 

[ericbeaumont]

fact that the queen is still present

She looks a short queen and if the cells are deep, may find it easier to lay on the cell wall.

 

[Adamski20]

She looks a short queen and if the cells are deep, may find it easier to lay on the cell wall.

better picture of queen, does she still look short?

 

[Antipodes]

better picture of queen, does she still look short?

As the laying on the side thing is getting worse, it's probably an internal abnormality.

 

[Adamski20]

In Point 6 in this document (under the heading "Symptoms") there is mention made of something similar perhaps?

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/rogerpatterson.html

Hmmm, interesting read. So there have been other cases where queens are laying on the sides of the cells and sometimes two egg per cell. I'm pretty certain i also have drone brood in worker cells, which is something else mentioned in point 6 and elsewhere in that document. Will confirm when I go to get a picture soon. Could be drone laying queen then.

 

[Adamski20]

a photograph of capped brood would be a big help.

I've edited original post and included photos of capped brood

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

the pattern on most frames suggests laying workers - regardless of whether the queen is present or not, even the 'good' cappings look suspect.
Whatever, that queen is goosed - either give her the gatepost treatment and unite the colony to another, or order a new queen and when she arrives - one out, new one in.

 

[Adamski20]

the pattern on most frames suggests laying workers - regardless of whether the queen is present or not, even the 'good' cappings look suspect.
Whatever, that queen is goosed - either give her the gatepost treatment and unite the colony to another, or order a new queen and when she arrives - one out, new one in.

if it is laying workers and I gatepost the queen and unite the colony with another, is there a risk that the laying workers will kill the queen in the colony I unite them with?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

if it is laying workers and I gatepost the queen and unite the colony with another, is there a risk that the laying workers will kill the queen in the colony I unite them with?

No - another myth, if you are in doubt, just kill the queen and shake the hive out

 

[Adamski20]

No - another myth, if you are in doubt, just kill the queen and shake the hive out

Thanks, I was leaning towards the dispatch and unite with another colony when I thought it was DLQ. Was worried about LW killing the other queen if uniting so wanted to be sure. But if LW killing queens is a myth then I'll be going down the uniting route. Thanks for the advice.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thanks, I was leaning towards the dispatch and unite with another colony when I thought it was DLQ. Was worried about LW killing the other queen if uniting so wanted to be sure. But if LW killing queens is a myth then I'll be going down the uniting route. Thanks for the advice.

Just make sure you are uniting with a strong colony