Drone laying queen. Did I fluff it?

[warts]

Opened up one of my hives this afternoon. Only drone brood, and not much stores, and most of the stores they had had gone hard (very different to my other hive that has lots of stores).

I assumed. A DLQ, and decided to try nd resolve the situation. But now at home, wondering whether his was the right course of action. This is what I did:

I removed the brood box to another area.

I then shook off all the bees from the floor extra that was left in the original place where the hive stands

I then removed the frames from the brood box. Shook out all the bees remainding, then took the brood box back to the hive stand

I then added new frames (not drawn, just foundation) to the brood box

And also added two frames from my spare hive, with eggs & brood in various stages of development

I then put the crown board on top, and added a bag of fondant for them to eat to help them get the other frames drawn out and feed the young from the two added frames.

I also added a frame or two above the fondant, placed on their side, with some pollen in. Thought it might be useful

Then shut them up.

The hive is situation on the edge of an OSR field, ie 6" from the crop.

Problem is, I tried to look for the DLQ, but couldn't find her, and hoped this approach might help resolve the situation. But now not so sure.

What should I have done, and is there anything else I can do?

Much appreciated in advance

Sally

 

[Erichalfbee]

So you shook all the bees out away from the hive?

The idea is that the queen won't find her way back but the foragers will.

I hope the weather was good or none of them will get home.
I hope it works out for you and that the bees make a new queen from the eggs you introduced.
OR you could unite the bees that return to one of your other hives.....strengthen the workforce for your crop because you won't get any honey from the "new"colony

 

[warts]

Hi Erichalfbee

Thanks for your response., it has set my mind at rest, somewhat.

I was hoping that the queen wouldn't find her way back...but then had doubted my thought processes because queens can fly. So I was a little uncertain of my tactic.

To be honest, I have resigned myself to not getting any honey from this hive this year. My biggest crop tends to be OSR, and between the weather and my bees, doubt there will be any leftovers for me.

Have run through the idea of uniting...and think that this may be my better option if they do not make a queen / appear to have too few worker bees. Though not sure what is too few, so will try and compare with what my first nuc looked like when I bought it. Also, though I did make sure they had eggs, the sky was overcast, and not too sure how old the eggs were. I normally use sunlight to help get a better look at the eggs, but this wasn't an option today.

Again, thanks. Will sleep a little better tonight

Sally

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well, you've got a split being reinforced by flying bees from the shaken out hive. Check queen cells in 6 days. Select one and cull the rest. Close up and cook for three weeks.

 

[oliver90owner]

Sorry but I think you may not achieve the desired effect.

You have rather followed a plan to rid a hive of laying workers. The main problem is return to the hive by the queen (not so likely perhaps if shaken out far enough away, but still quite probable); you may lose more bees if they cluster around her (and I have no idea if they would). You will also lose any very young house bees (if, indeed, there are any!)

By far better to have shaken all bees in the brood into a bottom box with just a frame or two, and gone back tomorrow to find her. An altenative to finding her on the frames would be to sieve the bees through a Q/E. Squished is best.

Your colony may well be so weakened that drawing emergency cells will lead to a poor queen, which will likely either go through your Q/E and /or be superceded in the near future. and they may have benefitted with being reduced to a nuc, even.

Uniting the remains with another colony would likely be a better solution after ridding it of the queen (that bottom Q/E would exclude flying drones from the brood frame box.

Sorry to dampen your hopes, but that is my take on it. Of course. I don't know whether your ploy has worked or not or how strong the rest of the colony is, but a worker-laying queen for them is the best solution. Think about those workers - how many will still be going in 6 weeks time when a new queen finally gets into lay and new brood is raised.

Another option would perhaps be a new laying queen introduced, but not sure if the colony is worth going that way. good luck, but...

RAB

 

[warts]

Ye gods. Rather puts a different slant on things. Will have a think about the best way forward. Didn't look particularly overflowing with workers...which was worrying. Unlikely to be able to visit again till Saturday (work demand).
I will have a look re uniting next weekend. And don't worry re the dampening of hopes, rather hopes dampened than colony lost

Thank you

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I agree with RAB that you have not carried out the correct procedure. A queen can be found, then simply removed. As RAB has written, leave one frame in the bottom brood box. Shake all the bees down, queen excluder over then second brood box over that with the remaining brood. The queen will be in the bottom brood box, most likely on the frame of brood. If the colony is weak, they can be united with another. They might just pull a queencell from a frame of brood but it may not be a good one. If you wanted to do this, and you have enough spare brod, put in a frame of sealed brood. Wait until it is emerging / half emerged (remove any queencells) then add a second frame; in this way you'll have some young bees to help produce a queen.

 

[oliver90owner]

Hebeegeebee,

Thanks for the reinforcement. No criticism of Erichalfbee - she had a go at replying and wasn't so far off the mark (suggested uniting).

However, it seems that most of the 'budding experts' out there avoid answering if it doesn't seem to be a 'staightforward' problem - just a little out of their standard 'bandwidth'? Too hard to have to think it through, rationally? Perhaps they don't like to be the bearer of bad news, even?

Trouble is, even apparent straightforward problems often have over-looked twists.

RAB

 

[susbees]

. A queen can be found, then simply removed.

This is not necessarily so...a DLQ from a cast swarm last season was unfindable by two other beekeepers who were visiting and myself and couldn't be sieved out either (totally cr*p queen). No obvious shape, flash of leg colour, movement pattern, nada. But single eggs, only in the bottom and chaotic comb from the poor workers adapting the worker cells to fit.

I confirm that shaking them out does NOT work IF you leave the original hive behind: this one flew straight back (new eggs). When she couldn't be found they were shaken out in front of strong hives and the wrecked comb destroyed.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hebeegeebee,

Thanks for the reinforcement. No criticism of Erichalfbee - she had a go at replying and wasn't so far off the mark (suggested uniting).


RAB

Blimey RAB....you should just have told me off for giving rubbish advice which is what I did.
I must keep my comments to stuff I do know

 

[rae]

I think it will probably work, there may have been better ways of doing it, but there always are. Our success at resurrecting drone laying colonies is so low, I am tempted to just tip them out in front of our other hives and let the foragers negotiate their way into a new home.

The problem with a hardened DL colony is that you don't really know if it is a DLQ or laying worker if you can't find the queen. If you tip them out 200 yards away, neither laying worker or queen is likely to make it home. Last year we learned to tip them out in a box - we tipped, had a sterile queen in there, and lots of bees stayed with her. We returned to the tip site 2 days later to find a soggy cluster, found the duff queen, and gave the cluster a queen cell in a nuc box, which they raised, and they are now a full (successful) hive.

So:

1) Check the tip site for a cluster.
2) Check your hive in 7 days for queen cells on the 2 frames of brood - if there are some, leave for a few weeks. Feed them, because they will be depleted and cold.

 

[oliver90owner]

Blimey RAB....you should just have told me off for giving rubbish advice

Not a bit of it! You at least tried and were close - well good enough to make Warts feel better. Just the reality was likely a little gloomier and more thought was required once the smoke had cleared. I wasn't really surprised that some others had not chipped in. You get to recognise those that try their best (you included) and those that those that don't cut the mustard on that score.

The problem with a hardened DL colony is that you don't really know if it is a DLQ or laying worker if you can't find the queen.

Rae (another respected poster),

It is fairly easy to discern between the two, except for the relatively new beeks (not much experience of laying workers, or even of DLQs).

Signs might be position of eggs in cells (bottom or side), laying pattern (wall to wall drone brood is never laying workers), number of eggs per cell, previous history of inspections (supercedure dates, per eg), whether there is any worker brood left, etc.

It is a shame as there seems to be more DLQs these days. OK the weather patterns are part to blame, but also some inferior queens as well, I am sure. Either supplied from some less reputable sources or reared by the beek (intentionally, or otherwise).

Regards to both, RAB

 

[rae]

We've had hives with perfectly positioned eggs....that once a test frame was put in, immediately started queen cells. So there was unlikely to be a queen in there, yet the eggs were in the right place.

We are talking about probabilities here. If you see well placed eggs, you most likely have a queen (of some sort) - but this is not certain.

We have a drone layer that has defied recovery this year. Was D/L at first inspection, queen spotted and killed. Deffo a queen, and a marked one at that. No traces of queen cells (so there wasn't another queen in there). Given a frame of eggs. Raised them, no queen cells! Huh? Given another frame. Built queen cells. OK....good. Then had torn them down at the next inspection. Huh? We have given them an open queen cells from another hive. If they destroy this, then they are getting tipped.

The hive that we tipped last year - that had a queen in it, but she was the size of an ordinary bee, just slightly different shape. We only managed to find her when the cluster was down to a cup of bees or so. She would have easily gone through a QX.

Yes, a lot of supersedure and D/L this year.