Double queen demarees

[Rory Fields]

Hi, I mostly run the 12 frame Abelo's at my home breeding apiary, and have read a little about two queen hives - have preemptively demareed and reduced the resultant qc's in the top box to one, with the bung left out as an entrance, rotated 180*, and two supers with two qe's sandwiched between the top brood box and the bottom containing the new queen. Was feeling terrifically clever and pleased with myself until my first attempt decided to swarm out the bottom with the original (clipped and marked) queen, landing 3ft out the front once there was a sealed qc in the top box. Does anyone know an optimum distance there needs to be for two queens to be laying one top and one bottom, or is it v hard to action due to the workers being ill-adapted to moving between the two queens, that though obviously not a natural perfect supersedure, are mother and daughter? Would be an absolute game changer for me to be able to rely on strong colonies with plenty of resources and desirable genetics to produce new queens, as insurance against one failing if nothing else. Have to confess though, that it not being common practice suggests to me there's a reason, I'm just not seeing it. Got one book on two queen hives from NBB, they mention The Wells Hive etc, but would appreciate any further reading or advice, thanks.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I've had Demarees ending up with mated queens top and bottom with just two shallows between them - no need for all this nonsense with entrances facing in different directions either.
I've had successful Demarees with just one shallow between both boxes. It helps to use a Demaree floor though.

 

[John stockburn]

Hi, I mostly run the 12 frame Abelo's at my home breeding apiary, and have read a little about two queen hives - have preemptively demareed and reduced the resultant qc's in the top box to one, with the bung left out as an entrance, rotated 180*, and two supers with two qe's sandwiched between the top brood box and the bottom containing the new queen. Was feeling terrifically clever and pleased with myself until my first attempt decided to swarm out the bottom with the original (clipped and marked) queen, landing 3ft out the front once there was a sealed qc in the top box. Does anyone know an optimum distance there needs to be for two queens to be laying one top and one bottom, or is it v hard to action due to the workers being ill-adapted to moving between the two queens, that though obviously not a natural perfect supersedure, are mother and daughter? Would be an absolute game changer for me to be able to rely on strong colonies with plenty of resources and desirable genetics to produce new queens, as insurance against one failing if nothing else. Have to confess though, that it not being common practice suggests to me there's a reason, I'm just not seeing it. Got one book on two queen hives from NBB, they mention The Wells Hive etc, but would appreciate any further reading or advice, thanks.

As per what the OP has said , no need f

Hi, I mostly run the 12 frame Abelo's at my home breeding apiary, and have read a little about two queen hives - have preemptively demareed and reduced the resultant qc's in the top box to one, with the bung left out as an entrance, rotated 180*, and two supers with two qe's sandwiched between the top brood box and the bottom containing the new queen. Was feeling terrifically clever and pleased with myself until my first attempt decided to swarm out the bottom with the original (clipped and marked) queen, landing 3ft out the front once there was a sealed qc in the top box. Does anyone know an optimum distance there needs to be for two queens to be laying one top and one bottom, or is it v hard to action due to the workers being ill-adapted to moving between the two queens, that though obviously not a natural perfect supersedure, are mother and daughter? Would be an absolute game changer for me to be able to rely on strong colonies with plenty of resources and desirable genetics to produce new queens, as insurance against one failing if nothing else. Have to confess though, that it not being common practice suggests to me there's a reason, I'm just not seeing it. Got one book on two queen hives from NBB, they mention The Wells Hive etc, but would appreciate any further reading or advice, thanks.

As per what the OP has said ,no need for entrances to face all points of the compass but a word of warning, a queen has the potential of laying two thousand eggs per day so if she is laying at that rate do your mathematics ,four thousand eggs per day two queens . .... times seven days !! Frequent inspections and enough room must be thought of carefully ,as for spacing between the two colonies I have found one brood box and a queen excluder top and bottom ,..best of luck.

 

[Curly green finger's]

I’ve not been brave enough to leave them to have two queens imo best to split them of and have done , it seems a lot of hassle and how can a colony be balanced with two queens for any length of time ( they are two colony’s )
With shared worker force how can that be right.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I’ve not been brave enough to leave them to have two queens imo best to split them of and have done , it seems a lot of hassle and how can a colony be balanced with two queens for any length of time ( they are two colony’s )
With shared worker force how can that be right.

Well you eventually remove the top colony. You don't leave them like that for winter, after all. It works well enough for quite a while.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

how can a colony be balanced with two queens for any length of time ( they are two colony’s )
With shared worker force how can that be right.

It works - been done frequently and for many years in various guises - try reading Dugat's 'The skyscraper hive' (English translation published in 1948).
Notwithstanding that, two queen systems have been used successfully out in the states since the beginning of the last century.

 

[polymath]

two posts from me the first for those that want a little more info on 2 queen hives:

 

[polymath]

the second if you really want a lot of reading:
Alexander, EW (1907). A plurality of queens without perforated zinc. Gleanings in Bee Culture 35(23):1136-1138. Gleanings in bee culture. v.35 (1907).
1946. Two-queen vs. single-queen colony management. Gleanings Bee Cult. 64(10): 593-596.
1976. Two-queen system of honey bee colony management. 11 p. U.S. Department of Agriculture, Production Research Report 161. Moeller
Alexander, E.W. (1907a). A plurality of queens without perforated zinc. Gleanings in Bee Culture 35(23):1136-1138. Gleanings in bee culture. v.35 (1907).
Alexander, E.W. (1907b). The plural queen system: all queens but one disappear at the end of the season. Gleanings in Bee Culture 35(17):1496. Gleanings in bee culture. v.35:no.13-24 (1907:July-Dec.).
Banker, R. (1968). A two queen method used in commercial operations. Apiacta 2, 4 pp. Banker, R. (1968). A two-queen method used in commercial operations. - Google Search
Banker, R. (1979). Part B. Two-queen colony management. The Hive and the Honey Bee (1975 extensive revision) pp. 404-410, Dadant and Sons Inc., Carthage, Illinois.
Bee (1904). Wells hive and system. West Gippsland Gazette, 17 May 1904, p.4. WELLS HIVE AND SYSTEM - West Gippsland Gazette (Warragul, Vic. : 1898 - 1930) - 17 May 1904
British Bee-Keepers’ Association Quarterly Converzatione (Thursday March 31, 1892). Mr Wells new method of working bees. The British Bee Journal and Beekeepers’ Record and Adviser 20(510):126, 132-133. https://ia802508.us.archive.org/29/items/britishbeejourna1892lond/britishbeejourna1892lond.pdf
Butler, C. (1974). The World of the Honeybee. Collins New Naturalist, London; Butler, C. (1962). Transactions of the Royal Entomological Society of London 114(1): 1-29.
Danka, Robert G., and Norman E. Gary. “Estimating foraging populations of honey bees (Hymenoptera: Apidae) from individual colonies.” Journal of economic entomology 80.2 (1987): 544-547.
Donaldson-Matasci, Matina C., Gloria DeGrandi-Hoffman, and Anna Dornhaus. “Bigger is better: honeybee colonies as distributed information-gathering systems.” Animal behaviour 85.3 (2013): 585-592.
Evans, Peter. Advances in Insect Physiology. Vol. 26. Academic Press, 1996. (pages128-135)
Farrar, C.L. (1936). Two-queen vs. single-queen colony management. Gleanings in Bee Culture 64(10):593-596.
Farrar, C.L. (May 1946). Two-queen colony management. United States Department of Agriculture. Agricultural Research Administration. Bureau of Entomology and Plant Quarantine, 14pp. http://ufdc.ufl.edu/AA00026061/00001/14j
Farrar, CL 1953 Two queen colony management. Bee World 34 (10): 189-194.
Flottum, Kim. “The Backyard Beekeeper’s Honey Handbook: A Guide to Creating, Harvesting, and Baking with Natural Honeys”. Crestline Books, 2009.
Hesbach, W. (2015). Two queens, one hive=lots of honey. Honey Bee Suite https://honeybeesuite.com/two-queens-one-hivelots-of-honey/
Hesbach, W. (22 February 2016). The horizontal two-queen system. Bee Culture http://www.beeculture.com/the-horizontal-two-queen-system/ Nabors, R. (1 August 2016). Comparing two-queen colony management methods. American Bee Journal 156(8). Beekeeping topics http://americanbeejournal.com/comparing-two-queen- colony-management-methods/
Heuvel, B. (March 2013). Running two-queen colonies. http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...ning-two-queen-colonies&p=1202508#post1202508
Hogg, J.A. (1983a). Methods for double queening the consolidated broodnest hive: fundamentals of queen introduction. Part 1 The Fundamentals of Queen Introduction. American Bee Journal 123:383-388. http://www.twilightmd.com/Samples/Hogg/Hogg_Halfcomb___Publications/ABJ_1983_1May.pdf
Hogg, J.A. (1983b). Methods for double queening the consolidated broodnest hive: the fundamentals of queen introduction. Part 2 Conclusion. American Bee Journal 123:450-454. http://www.twilightmd.com/Samples/Hogg/Hogg_Halfcomb___Publications/ABJ_1983_2June.pdf
Hogg, J.A. (2005). The Juniper Hill plan for comb honey production, improved two-queen system. American Bee Journal 145(2):138-141. http://www.twilightmd.com/Samples/Hogg/Hogg_Halfcomb___Publications/ABJ_2005_February.pdf
Killion, E.E. (1981). Honey in the Comb. Dadant & Sons. Inc, Carthage, Illinois.
Lensky, Yaacov, and Yossi Slabezki. “The inhibiting effect of the queen bee (Apis mellifera L.) foot-print pheromone on the construction of swarming queen cups.” Journal of Insect Physiology 27.5 (1981): 313-323.
Mark L. Winston. 1987. The Biology of the Honey Bee. Harvard University Press. Cambridge, MA. (pages 90-109)
Moeller, F.E. (April 1976). Two queen system of honeybee colony management. Production Research Report 161, Agricultural Research Service, United States Department of Agriculture, 15pp., Washington DC 20402. http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/CAT87210713/PDF and http://mesindus.ee/files/52221134-2-queen-management.pdf
Nabors, R. (1 August 2016). Comparing two-queen colony management methods. American Bee Journal 156(8)-. Beekeeping topics http://americanbeejournal.com/comparing-two-queen-colony-management-methods/
The role of queen mandibular pheromone and colony congestion in honey bee (Apis mellifera L.). Journal of Insect Behavior, 1991, Volume 4, Number 5, Page 649. Mark L. Winston, Heather A. Higo, Simon J. Colley,
Wells, G. (18 May 1893). Comparing the double and single-queen systems. The British Bee Journal and Beekeepers Record and Adviser 21(569):195-196.
Wells, G. (May 10, 1894). British Bee Journal, Bee-Keepers’ Record and Adviser 22:183-184. The Wells System. Reply to Mr Walton’s open letter. https://ia600200.us.archive.org/3/items/britishbeejourna1884lond/britishbeejourna1884lond.pdf
Zheng, Huo-Qing, et al. “Sustainable multiple queen colonies of honey bees, Apis mellifera ligustica.” Journal of apicultural research 48.4 (2009): 284-289.

 

[jeff33]

I’ve not been brave enough to leave them to have two queens imo best to split them of and have done , it seems a lot of hassle and how can a colony be balanced with two queens for any length of time ( they are two colony’s )
With shared worker force how can that be right.

I use it on my best colonies (those I am happy to raise daughters from) and add supers above the top box as well. Once the summer flow is over, I split into 2 hives or unite keeping the best queen.

 

[Curly green finger's]

I use it on my best colonies (those I am happy to raise daughters from) and add supers above the top box as well. Once the summer flow is over, I split into 2 hives or unite keeping the best queen.

I’ll try it next year and stop being a woos.
I’ve been using the cells in the incubator or splitting them the splits are doing well and going to heather

 

[jeff33]

I’ll try it next year and stop being a woos.
I’ve been using the cells in the incubator or splitting them the splits are doing well and going to heather

I don't run dble with all of them, some I split or just take the new queen out to make new nuc or requeen other colonies. I don't seem to have problems with swarming but then again I don't run dble queens too early in the season, I usually let them raise one towards the end of May, early June just in time for the main flow.

 

[polymath]

I use it on my best colonies (those I am happy to raise daughters from) and add supers above the top box as well. Once the summer flow is over, I split into 2 hives or unite keeping the best queen.

same