double brood, 14x12 or one and half, experience please!

[Skyhook]

Not so. There is a little bit at the end of the frame top bar where bottom space breaks down. This is why I'm changing over. Put an empty box on top of a box with frames in, and you'll see what I mean.

Skyhook, please explain as it is not very transparent. What are you changing over, from what, and to what?

Either system has it's pros and cons.

If you are changing to top space, you will find that frames are often slightly displaced (or more) when you set that box onto a surface.

Or is this the 7mm, or so, space that the boxes have at the bottom ends (lug end)?

Must be thick this morning as I am really not sure what you are on about.

RAB

Changing from bottom space to top space.

On a BS frame, the lug sits in the rebate and projects to around 14mm from the outside of the box. The base of the box above it is around 43mm thick, therefore overhangs it by around 29mm. With bottom space, the top of the top bar is close enough to the bottom of the box above to get propolised on- as my girls will confirm.

I know what youre saying about displacing the frames, but nothing's perfect.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

As soon as weather permits I'm planning on swapping both my brood and a half WBC and single national over to 14x12s, either via a shook swarm or via a method posted by Rosti a few weeks back - essentially putting the 14x12 on top until it largely drawn and queen laying there, then moving the old box on top a la Demaree to clear out remainding brood

 

[oliver90owner]

Skyhook,

The standard National bottom bee space super design has a bee space on the lower edge for the very purpose of leaving a beespace over the frame lugs in the end-wall area.

If one deviates from the design, one can expect all sorts of antics by the bees filling any incorrect space, but I experienced little problem with mine.

The frame lugs will come under the top box bars that by amount, but with no clearance space as the frames should be level with the top of the box. Additionally, I make sure there is a bee space under the lugs, behind the frame runner, as that was a problem on the supers I got with my colonies, originally.

I thought, at the time they were 'sticky, propolising' bees, but it was down to the frame/box arrangement in that area - the bees filled an ~2mm gap very effectively!

That is why I always lowered the end walls (boxes screwed, not nailed) or filled in that bottom space when converting supers from bottom to top bee space, so as to leave just a single bee space above my top bars to the next box.

Regards, RAB

 

[milkermel]

OK folks, So if 1 1/2 has the potential for being messy, I will ignore that option, I am going to have to get either a half brood or 14x12 so it will be the frames that are extra.

Next question presume that people on the 14x12 dont have issues with running out of space??? inuendo aside the extra 2" is enough??

These girls really are a great bunch they are mad at work and doing wonders, hopeing to get inside this week and have a good look if this weather stays good.

Thanks again for help

 

[Nellie]

I much prefer 14x12 over double brood/brood and a half. I get all the reasons why people do use double boxes, I just find them a pita.

If anything I find them a little on the large side for my bees, that's fine by me however as it means they've got plenty of stores in the brood box. Between three colonies going into winter they had 1.5 litres of 2:1 syrup on a late Nuc that was a little light on stores. All three through winter with a bit of fondant to tide them over.

The only real downside from my point of view is the weight and relative fragility of the comb. But if you don't hold them horizontally they're fine.

 

[tonybloke]

I use 'commercial' broods, 16 x 10 frames are easier (for me) to handle than 14 x 12.

 

[For want of a better word]

IF the standard brood boxed are not suitable for purpose... why do ALL the manufactures of Nationals sell them.
Maybe I missed it... but merely playing the devils advocate... and for any confused newbees.........

What size "eke" is needed to extend the standard brood box, do you glue it on?

where can foundation in the extra size be purchased cheaply?
and can longer side bars for DN4 frames be bought and what is the number code?
What do you do with all theold redundant sidebars.???????

so many questions .... so many different answers

I will continue to paddle my own canoe.... certainly no room here for any confusing advice!

 

[For want of a better word]

There is another option..... thanks for the phonecall Mr NATURESWAYBEEK.........

lives in a Yurt in the local woods... but has an ap'd up mobile phone!!!!!
( and a solar PV charger )

TOP BAR HIVES bees make all the room they need NATURALLY !!!!




(He is "postihg shy so asked me to do it!)

 

[Steved6530]

I have been using nationals for years, after a little experiment with commercials, and have found double brood boxes to be preferable to brood and a half. The main advantages I have found include uniformity of frame size which is ideal when splitting colonies and manipulating for swarm control.

I must confess to having no experience with 14x12, although adding a half brood to this size box seems to me to be making life a bit to difficult for manipulations.

My advice would be to experiment with various methods that are available and find the one that works the best for you............ and your bees!

 

[Nellie]

IF the standard brood boxed are not suitable for purpose... why do ALL the manufactures of Nationals sell them.

because it's the de facto standard hive type in the UK from a time when AMM was the predominant bee here and was quite happy, as are many people's bees still in a single national brood box.

Maybe I missed it... but merely playing the devils advocate... and for any confused newbees.........

What size "eke" is needed to extend the standard brood box, do you glue it on?

I'm sure Tom can quote exact measurements, but you can buy them from most beehive makers, the smart ones design them to slot under an existing national, no glue required, thorns ones sit on top of a national brood which is a pain.

where can foundation in the extra size be purchased cheaply?

I don't use foundation anymore but all the main suppliers I've looked at offer 14x12 foundation.

and can longer side bars for DN4 frames be bought and what is the number code?

no idea what the codes are and as most suppliers names get censored seems little point trying to post a list anyway I just buy my frames in batches from whichever supplier I happen to be using at the time. 14x12s frames only come in DN4/Hoffman spacing that ive seen.

What do you do with all theold redundant sidebars.???????

firelighters? I use whole frames in Nucs and for drone raising.

 

[nelletap]

My mentor did sugges a 14 x 12 as we are in the 'M4 corridor' but I was wary because of the weight. However, I can see that perhaps one 14 x 12 needs less moving around by virtue of the fact it is one box. So I'll watch this thread!
Tricia

 

[milkermel]

Right then I am decided . . . . I think! looks like it will be the 14x12 option weight cant be as bad as moving two brood boxes which I think is more than my girls will need, but I like to KIS so will avoid doing the half brood option.

Have just seen thornes do an extention kit for i presume standard to deep brood frames so I think I will give them ago to keep cost down plus i already have 3 more deep boxes of frames all drawn out ( they dont have any shallow supers for honey just deeps) so I presume I can adapt these with the extention kit.

Tricia I will let you know how i get on. I can lift weights but by the end of last year and 3 deep supers I had had enough! Moving the girls was even worse as they were still very active in late October and over 3 deep boxes 2 very full of honey (mainly ivy honey unfortuneately!)

 

[MJBee]

When in the UK (North Northumberland) my bees were quite happy in a single National Brood. I moved over here and found the local mongrels needed at least double National Brood. It was at that point that I started to change to Commercial (16 x 10).

As I then had a surplus of National Brood boxes I began to convert them to 14 x 12, slightly smaller than Commercial and Double National but better than a 22 frame double National.

 

[milkermel]

When in the UK (North Northumberland) my bees were quite happy in a single National Brood. I moved over here and found the local mongrels needed at least double National Brood. It was at that point that I started to change to Commercial (16 x 10).

As I then had a surplus of National Brood boxes I began to convert them to 14 x 12, slightly smaller than Commercial and Double National but better than a 22 frame double National.

Having spoken to my friend to put an order in she has suggested similar so am going to have eke added to bb and extend the frames with a thornes extention kit.

 

[Haughton Honey]

Try this......

http://www.cheshire-bka.co.uk/Articles/CheshireSystemOfBeekeeping.php

 

[milkermel]

Try this......

http://www.cheshire-bka.co.uk/Articles/CheshireSystemOfBeekeeping.php

Ok so interesting reading, could you tell me though as I am still very new to it all and take some time figuring it out. Why when you split the brood boxes do you need to put a QE below the top box and above the first brood box? Do they create a second queen that stays in the hive?

 

[Haughton Honey]

Ok so interesting reading, could you tell me though as I am still very new to it all and take some time figuring it out. Why when you split the brood boxes do you need to put a QE below the top box and above the first brood box? Do they create a second queen that stays in the hive?

They'll only create a replacement Queen if you let them (i.e if you don't inspect and destroy any QCs in the days after this manipulation).

The second QX is, in reality, just a safety net. It helps prevent drones getting in to the supers and they can be released from the top at each inspection.

This system is very similar to 'demareeing'. I've used both one and two QX with the demaree method....depending upon what kit I have to hand at the time.

 

[Baggyone]

Thornes extension kits.

Used them on two hives. Frankly a pain in the bum. The bees eat the hell out of the foundation and did'nt take to them too well. Great idea but I can only see drawbacks. Would not do it again and have 50 full frames in the shed waiting my attention.

Baggy

 

[milkermel]

Th**nes extension kits.

Used them on two hives. Frankly a pain in the bum. The bees eat the hell out of the foundation and did'nt take to them too well. Great idea but I can only see drawbacks. Would not do it again and have 50 full frames in the shed waiting my attention.

Baggy

Pain in the bum?? apart from them eating the foundation what other problems did you experience? are they too flimsy?? Thanks for the feedback. I only have one hive for this so will see what happens, but forwarned is forarmed

 

[milkermel]

Ok so I went to the hive today to do a full on inspection, My mentor thought I may be a bit late to change to 14x12 so before buying the gubbins thought I better have a full look!

Yep, girls are very busy! must be at least 5 or 6 frames in both brood boxes with very good coverage of lava eggs brood. loads of pollen visable and still good stores as well. So as always the girls have decided what is happening this year!

Double Brood here I come! on the up side because I am now not spending owners money on 14x12 gear Iam going to get to supers for them rather than use deep boxes for the honey like last year. . . now that really did do my back in!

Didnt spot her maj, but eggs standing so long as I havent squished her putting it back together then I am fine!