Disappointing Visit

[Brian Bush]

I visited all my hives yesterday. The weather was warm about 16C.
I went into the winter with 13 hives all except 3 on a 14x12 brood box plus a super of honey. The 3 smaller were on brood boxes alone.
On the winter oxalic treatment in Jan I had lost 3 hives. The remainder all had food, extra fondant was added.
Yesterday I went to replace queen excluders and do a clean up inventery.
I have lost another 2 hives. Those remaining are very mixed. 2 have old queens that do not appear to be laying well. 2 no queens were found but capped brood was present.
The 2 WBCs had large numbers of bees, could not locate the queens but both had 3+frames with brood on both sides.
My colleague had lost her hive.
My theory is that the flying late into the Autumn shortened the life of the over-wintering bees and they have been unable to provide sufficient warmth for brood production or even staying alive.
Other years I have lost a maximum of 3 hives from 14.
I would welcome any comments from others with regard to losses this winter ans reasons for them.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Hi Brian - sorry to hear of the losses. You don't say if the dead hives had stores left, or if there were any other signs e.g. dead bees head down in cells, damp, varroa etc

 

[drstitson]

what were your varroa drops after OA and what had you used earlier in the season?

 

[nelletap]

I am in Buckinghamshire as well. I had two hives going into winter and they overwintered on single standard brood with no super. I had fed them before winter obviously. I was surprised how little syrup my No 2 hive took especially (obtained from swarm April 2011). Autumn Apiguard treatment was given. I gave each hive some fondant just after Xmas and on a warmish day in Feb did a quick visual check there was still some left.
Did you go to the Bucks beekeepers seminar on Mar 3rd? Could your losses relate to the density of hives? The talk on pollen and protein levels in a hive was particularly interesting. I recognise I must not get over complacent, but both hives seem to be behaving well - determinedly and purposefully busy on the warmest days with pollen coming in in fair quantities. There are a few hives around - probably the closest are 2 miles away. We have farmland, woodland and gardens close by. We are at the edge of the village.

Tricia

PS it goes without saying that I can empathise with your losses and recognise luck has a part to play as well as other factors.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I don't think autumn flying is significant.
What's the reason for the losses - starvation or unknown?
Did you treat for varroa in the autumn? Did you treat / have you checked for Nosema?

 

[itma]

... 13 hives all except 3 on a 14x12 brood box plus a super of honey. The 3 smaller were on brood boxes alone.
On the winter oxalic treatment in Jan I had lost 3 hives. The remainder all had food, extra fondant was added.
Yesterday I went to replace queen excluders and do a clean up inventery.
I have lost another 2 hives. Those remaining are very mixed. 2 have old queens that do not appear to be laying well. 2 no queens were found but capped brood was present.
The 2 WBCs had large numbers of bees, could not locate the queens but both had 3+frames with brood on both sides.
My colleague had lost her hive.
...

Ouch, that is very disappointing.

14x12 + a full super shouldn't be a recipe for starvation ... (quite the opposite) ...
... BUT strangely I don't see mention of how well-filled the BB frames were, or mention of Autumn feeding.

3/13 down by New Year doesn't sound good, and shouldn't be down to starvation *IF* there was 20kg of stores around the end of October.
If they starved, there simply can't have been enough there (or accessible).
If they didn't starve, I'd be worried about disease. Was the colleague's hive on the same site? "Not laying well" also sounds like there's something needing attention.

Did you have the floor open and insulation above the crown board?

While there's mention of giving fondant in Jan, there's no mention of checking again or hefting, or other attention after that until now. What I was taught was that, having started on fondant, one needs to ensure that fondant is maintained until you are sure, from inspection, that they can manage without. Did it happen?



Have you seen all the other current threads about it being probably a bit early to be thinking of fitting QXs and not supering-up until there's brood on about 7 frames, rather than 3?

 

[Nic Rhodes]

if you have have lost 3 in 14 on oxalic acid treatment, I would look to check for Nosema for sure, especially if they died about 2 weeks after oxalic acid treatments. Not good bed fellows.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I would welcome any comments from others with regard to losses this winter ans reasons for them.

No losses this winter so far, all five frame nucs in 9mm ply boxes looking good as well,even the over wintered mini nucs are all strong and healthy. Did have to re queen one after removing a virgin queen just over a week ago,new queen is now laying well.

The most losses i have ever had were when using oxalic acid,athough nosema also played a part in this...but never had such losses before or since stopping using oxalic, and going back to eo's in syrup feed, instead of fondant, and only very few lost last winter,and none the year before,both winters were much harder than this one. I don't think the warmer winter and more active bees has anything to do with losses,they were also brooding much later,in fact some never stopped,so any old bees dying off were being replaced.

 

[Holly Bees]

eo`s in syrup?

 

[Hivemaker.]

eo`s in syrup?

Essential oils.

 

[Holly Bees]

Thanks ......Nice recipe for thymol syrup by the way!

 

[drstitson]

been having an argument today on italian forum regarding use of EO based products - many of them seem to be against it on principal as it'll taint the honey (even if used after harvest ie 8+ months before supers on).

tried arguing that yes, EOs are lipid soluble and so will remain to some extent in wax but.....

oh well - leave them to their OA vaporisers and massive winter losses!

 

[peteinwilts]

but never had such losses before or since stopping using oxalic, and going back to eo's in syrup feed, instead of fondant, QUOTE]

no losses out of how many?

I am equally blessed. I reduced to 25 before winter, including 2 experimental NUC's and gave them thymolated syrup and all appear good. Excluding NUC's, they took between 15 and 27 litres of the stuff.

What EO do you use in your syrup, and how much?

 

[itma]

if you have have lost 3 in 14 on oxalic acid treatment, I would look to check for Nosema for sure, especially if they died about 2 weeks after oxalic acid treatments. Not good bed fellows.

I must admit that I read the post as 3 having been discovered dead when opening for Oxalic ... and that fondant was applied on the same visit, and that the hives were then 'undisturbed' until now.

 

[rae]

Don't know. We are not that far from you (Berkshire) and also had very late flying bees. They got heavy in about October, got light in November/December and we've had fondant on them since Jan. We haven't looked inside most of them yet, but judging by the clouds of bees outside all of the hives, they're fine. We OAd in Jan, I doubt it was that effective as they probably had brood. At that point, there were 5 or 6 seams of bees, which is pretty big.

The only hive we have looked at (we want to kill the queen before she raises drones) had 5 full frames of brood last week end, which seems VERY big for mid March. She is clearly a good layer, but the bees have such awful temperament that she has to go.

We had a lot of queens fail to mate properly last year, and did a bit of merging late in the season - I wonder if you've had the same but a bit later?

 

[RoseCottage]

I concur with all that has been said before and wonder what the apiary aspect is like. Our bees in their 2nd year had been moved to a poor location for spring buildup. Now this year the hive entrances are all in sun early in the day and they are a lot happier for it
All the best,
Sam

 

[Into the lions den]

been having an argument today on italian forum regarding use of EO based products - many of them seem to be against it on principal as it'll taint the honey (even if used after harvest ie 8+ months before supers on).

Its actually a risk thats real despite the oil soluble nature (thus in wax).

Thymol quickly deadens the nose to its presence, and in that respect it is quite a risky product to use. The user thinks their honey/comb/field hives perfect, absolutely no thymol smell. Someone not used to it comes along and smells it instantly. Any complaint simply causes offence as the beekeeper/honey producer cannot detect it, unless he goes off on holiday or the likes then comes back.

Fact. A few years ago a significant amount (many tonnes) of heather honey produced in the English/Scottish borders area was rejected by the packer due to thymol taint. The trader involved did not even know what thymol was for and sent me a sample of the honey. It was actually quite unpleasant due to the alien smell. How much did he use? No idea.

The beekeeper died, and we took over some of his bees, a friend took over the rest. In 2009 we were taking the old super combs out of service (this was at least 15 yrs after they were ever exposed to thymol) and as we chopped them out and melted them we could smell thymol, strongly, from both the wax melter and the frame steamer. Our friend still has the supers he got in service, and even without heat they still smell a little different from our own.

Stuff to be cautious with, for sure never overuse, and follow directions carefully.

 

[drstitson]

"Thymol quickly deadens the nose to its presence"

you've got a point there - neither OH nor myself have a problem with Thymol - unlike many here were happy mixing it up indoors.

But i presume HM recipes are ok if followed correctly.

and also in the case you cite the beek was treating supers and brood with thymol.