Demaree

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mickbees23

House Bee
Joined
Mar 2, 2018
Messages
168
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Location
Cleveland
Hive Type
National
Number of Hives
15
Hi folks,

After probably the worst spring I have ever experienced in my 52 years I am considering Demaree this year. My colonies are approximately 4-6 weeks behind what I have ever seen before. Problem is we now have 2 weeks of good weather forecast. This will allow my colonies to expand enough just at the right time to swarm as we will be coming to the end of our only nectar flow. Unlike the BBKA Southern beekeeping mantra we don't have a main flow in July. Its all done by the 2nd week in June. So I want to try and maximise the short and now this year compacted season as everything will be in flower at the same time. Usually its Blackthorn mid March, Pear and Cherry in May. Blackthorn has only been in flower a week, Pear and Cherry out on time and Bramble / Blackberry looks like flowering in the next week or so.

I want to try a Demaree so I can keep the colonies as large as possible without a brood break the Pagden A/S causes and try to maximise the short flow we will have.

Can you please try to help me understand any problems this may throw up or pitfalls to avoid.

Cheers, Mick.
 
5 years ago was worse - beekeepers feeding colonies into second half of May. No honey flow until third week in May, even though initially the OSR was in bloom the last week in March. This season, although being late, is not (so far) anywhere near as bad as that year.

Demaree is a method primarily to encourage queen cells in a box distant from the queen. It helps to avoid (or delay) swarming but, as it does not stop the queen laying, the colony can continue to expand andswarm later. The beekeeper needs to continue to swap boxes at three week intervals and provide adequate space for the colony dependent on conditions.

Bees, given sufficient space, for nectar storage as well as for brood, will not usually swarm until the flow reduces - leaving surplus nectar collectors and nectar>honey processors with little to do. Without a brood break (or at least a considerable reduction in brood) you will not completely remove the swarming instinct. The beekeeper still needs to observe and A/S if and when appropriate. Little point in having huge colonies with no flow, is there?

The Pagden was designed to minimise loss of nectar collection - still the same number of foragers with the queen-right part? Are you 52 years old or have been keeping bees for that time?
 
Hi folks,

After probably the worst spring I have ever experienced in my 52 years I am considering Demaree this year. My colonies are approximately 4-6 weeks behind what I have ever seen before. Problem is we now have 2 weeks of good weather forecast. This will allow my colonies to expand enough just at the right time to swarm as we will be coming to the end of our only nectar flow. Unlike the BBKA Southern beekeeping mantra we don't have a main flow in July. Its all done by the 2nd week in June. So I want to try and maximise the short and now this year compacted season as everything will be in flower at the same time. Usually its Blackthorn mid March, Pear and Cherry in May. Blackthorn has only been in flower a week, Pear and Cherry out on time and Bramble / Blackberry looks like flowering in the next week or so.

I want to try a Demaree so I can keep the colonies as large as possible without a brood break the Pagden A/S causes and try to maximise the short flow we will have.

Can you please try to help me understand any problems this may throw up or pitfalls to avoid.

Cheers, Mick.

Sorry to hear about your poor foraging. Mine are in the middle of their spring flow with field maple, flowering cherry already well out and sycamore, horse chestnut and hawthorn just starting. Bramble, privet and lime come along later during the so called 'June gap'. I keep plenty of overwintered nucs so that if necessary I can donate brood to the production colonies to get them nice and strong at the time of the spring flow. Otherwise you could unite?
 
Demaree in its purist form requires you to be on a double brood box to start with, though I understand there are variations that can be applied. I use 14 X 12 and was advised not to Demaree, not sure if the advice was correct but it came from a reputable source, so have stuck to Pagden for my A/s. I understand that one issue is that having moved boxes and done your vertical split, if there is limited flow there is a risk of starvation and you may need to use contact feeders. Demaree has always struck me as an effective method, but can only offer information that I have read rather than practical advice.


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Pitfulls,you have to find the queen first then find and destroy every queen cell at fixed intervals of around 6 days,pretty sure at some point you will be knocking them off in the rain.
Miss one and it's a pretty big prime swarm you are losing.
 
T'other pitfall is, if you aren't actively swapping empty frames from your top brood box as the brood emerges into your bottom box the bees fill them with honey....assuming there is a decent flow on. Prefer a board with mesh and separate entrance(s) to separate (sort of Snelgrove), keeps the honey in the supers and less work.
 
Problem is we now have 2 weeks of good weather forecast. This will allow my colonies to expand enough just at the right time to swarm as we will be coming to the end of our only nectar flow.

If that is the case, maybe best to just let them expand/give them space without messing about, catch whatever flow you can, and if, after the flow, they look like swarming deal with it then? Wouldn't that maximise honey production?

My bees are way behind too but I'm hoping that things will work themselves out. Some forage is also behind here.
 
Hi folks,

I want to try a Demaree so I can keep the colonies as large as possible without a brood break the Pagden A/S causes and try to maximise the short flow we will have.

Can you please try to help me understand any problems this may throw up or pitfalls to avoid.

Cheers, Mick.

I use Demarree extensively and find it very successful, it is not primarily designed to produce queen cells - but that is a very handy and useful side effect which gives you a few (not many) good queen cells which are more akin to supesedure than emergency cells (regardless of what one comic on here claimed a few years ago) so you can also make up a few nucs - or even run a two queen sustem - I have done occasionally, although inadvertently :D
You need to get it going when the colony is good and strong but it's too late once they start building QC's.you need a super or two on for it to work well.
PM me if you like and I can email you my notes to help you.

Demaree in its purist form requires you to be on a double brood box to start with

No it doesn't, read Demarree's own articles on it - nowhere does it mention double brood.
 
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No it doesn't, read Demarree's own articles on it - nowhere does it mention double brood.

In fact there is no stacking in Demaree's original article, reproduced in full below.
In it's original article it's seems more akin to a Pagden than a verticla split.
I must search further and find when he modified it.

From ABJ.
Controlling Increase, etc. G. W. DEMAREE. It is not my purpose to " moralize," as the manner of some is on such occasions as this. Let the past with its successes and failures suffice us. It is with the present and future that we have to deal. It is enough to say that the past honey season has not been satisfactory to most of us. The flow of nectar from white clover was marvelously profuse, but the period was too short to give a full crop. Many of us made the mistake of laying our plans too broad for the short harvest, which we did not anticipate. I, for one, have learned something in that direction, and from that experience. Hereafter, I shall work my bees for what is in sight, and broaden my plans if the occasion demands and justifies it. I wish to call your attention to the fact that many persons begin to talk and write as though bee-culture, as a science and as a practical industry, has reached the fop round of the ladder. Let no one be deceived by the exhausted ideas of such. I am willing that it shall go to record when I say here, that the present mode of handling or manipulating bees and bee-implements, in short, the present system of bee-keeping, which we proudly call the "modern system," will, in the near future, be revolutionized and made a thing of memory only. There is no question, pertaining to apiculture in the South, of so much importance as that of controlling increase. In the North, where long, cold winters hold the " balance " with the grip of death, it is well enough to say, " let the bees swarm." With us, bees succumb to nothing but the expiration of the lease of life, or straight-out starvation. Not a fatal case of the disease known as dysentery or diarrhoea, in the North, has ever come to the knowledge of the writer, in all Central and Southern Kentucky. Most of us have seen bees with distended bodies when confined to the hives unusually long during unusually cold winters; but a single flight in the open air is all that is necessary to restore them to a normal condition. The Southern apiarist smiles at the conceit of the pollen and hibernation theorists. Our bees gather pollen eight months in the year, and "snap their fingers" at pollen chimera. As to the " sleepy-headedness " of bees: In January, 1881, my bees could be seen either.on the wing or stirring about the entrances of the hives every clay but three in that month. They wintered well without sleep (?). Why, sirs, if I should follow the advice of some who say, " let the bees swarm," my apiary wrould multiply to 2,000 colonies in four years, provided that I would covenant to let none of them starve ! In the light of these facts, any system of management that does not put the matter of increase entirely at the disposal of the apiarist, needsimprovement, and is sure to be improved. It occurred to me years ago that if queenless bees could be employed to produce honey, the problem would be solved ; and, now, after experimenting considerably in that direction, I am prepared to say that I can control increase by employing queenless bees to gather my surplus crop of honey; and in order that others may aid me in perfecting the new system, I will here give you a description of the practical working of the plan : In the early part of the honey season, the surplus cases are adjusted on the hives in the usual way, and "rurther proceedings continued " till the colonies show signs of swarming. I then move the old hive from its stand and put a new (or empty) hive in its place, and fill up the new hive with empty combs, one of which must contain some larvae just hatched from the eggs. The case or cases for surplus honey are now lifted off of the old hive and set, with all the bees in them, on the new hives. You now look up the queen and put the combs in which she is found, in your comb-box, and then proceed to shake the bees from the combs into the old hive right in front of the new one, having first provided a slanting board to lead the bees to the entrance. Place the combs back in the old hive, to which add the comb with the queen, and set the old hive at right angles with the new one. It is best to spread a cloth over the old hive to disguise it for a day or so. It will be seen that the new hive contains nearly all of the field workers, and a large portion of the young bees for comb-builders, while the old hive has all the brood with the queen, and enough workers and nurses to push forward brood-rearing. The bees in the new hive will start queen-cells and gather honey with the greatest rapidity. In five or six days we begin to turn the old hive, a little at a time, so as to stand close by the side of the new one, bringing the entrances of both hives, practically, together. At the expiration of ten daysif the honey season continued goodthe old colony will be strong enough to spare additional working force to the honey-producing colony in the new hive ; and to accomplish this, all we have to do is to turn the old hive back to its former position,at right angles with the new hive, at a time when the bees are in the fields in full force, and as they come home loaded, they will enter the new hive and recruit its failing strength. Of course the queen-cells must be removed, and freshly-hatched larvce given in their place. When all danger of swarming is over, the old hive is brought in line with the new one, and the bees are united by " tiering up " the new hive on the old one, and thus the honey-harvest is finished up by the united colony. It will be noticed that I speak of employing two hives for each colony, which I distinguish by the terms " new1\' and t; old/1 Well, now I propose to dispense with the extra cost of the \'L new hive,\'1 and in its place I use the supers or surplus cases adjusted on a recess bottom-board. When running a colony for comb honey, I will work a case of shallow extracting-combs on the recess board, and underneath the section-cases, to catch the pollen, if any is brought in. My recess bottom-boards are made just the width of the hive I use, and two inches longer. A strip of wood %x% of an inch is nailed to three sides of the board to give " bee space" under the cases which rest on the elevated rim formed by the strips of wood. The extra two inches in the length of the board is for an alighting-board. I have now given my new system of controlling increase suppressing swarming, if you prefer the terms, and producing honey with queenless bees. Of course there will be much criticism. A large minority of bee-culturists have always refused to accept anything "new" until they have" added some " improvement," worthless though it may be, to the new improvement or device. I do not object to this. Many fine inventions have been born of absurdity. Christiansburg, Ky.
 
That may his first article mentioning a method on swarm control but his 1894 ABJ article on swarm avoidance describes a procedure very much akin to what we do now. I only have a gif of the original article which I attach.
 

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Excellent, been looking for that for ages. Thanks.
Interested in if you agree/disagree that Demarree is really swarm prevention, rather than swarm management. i.e done before queen cells appear.
 
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Inspecting and making artificial swarm is was a good job too.

. I let the colony grow so long as it get swarming fever. Then AS.
Then hive parts must be United for yield season.

Demareering does not bring stars from sky.
.

Our climate is cold, and I keep it important that the brood area is compact and warm, and not splited by force. IT is important that bee strain is slow to swarm, and Italian bee is good for that purpose.
.
 
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Excellent, been looking for that for ages. Thanks.
Interested in if you agree/disagree that Demarree is really swarm prevention, rather than swarm management. i.e done before queen cells appear.

Yes - swarm avoidance/prevention rather than management, it's a pre-emptive manipulation and should be done before there are any sign of QC's
I see there is at least one BKA out there which instructs that Demarree should be done after finding QC's - totally rubbish advice
 
Thank you everyone for your help, It gives me quite a few options to consider.

Cheers, Mick
 
Thanks JBM for countering the haters, using the facts. I am late to this thread for some reason. I Demaree every hive that is big enough and have never had a problem with EQCs.

Work out a way to let the drones out though.
 
Work out a way to let the drones out though.

So you are saying that an extra VQ above the excluder does not trigger the swarm Mark referred to?

Were you using 2 excluders (I only use 1) or would that not make a difference?

.

to all intents and purposes, two QX's - I make up Demarree boards, basically a crown board with a 10mm or so rim on the top side with a small entrance (about two inches) I cut a three by two inch hole in the middle of the board covered with a piece of zinc queen excluder.So it's hive floor, brood box with original queen on frame of brood and mostly foundation, QX, supers, Demarree board (entrance facing the same direction as bottom entrance) then second brood box with all the other frames from original (bottom) BB.
Haven't had it trigger a swarm yet and the drones are free to come and go as they please.
 
to all intents and purposes, two QX's - I make up Demarree boards, basically a crown board with a 10mm or so rim on the top side with a small entrance (about two inches) I cut a three by two inch hole in the middle of the board covered with a piece of zinc queen excluder.So it's hive floor, brood box with original queen on frame of brood and mostly foundation, QX, supers, Demarree board (entrance facing the same direction as bottom entrance) then second brood box with all the other frames from original (bottom) BB.
Haven't had it trigger a swarm yet and the drones are free to come and go as they please.

Thanks: BTW the "work out a way to let the drones out" was for the OP not for you although I realise it was open to that interpretation. Sorry. Not teaching Grandma Demaree to suck eggs!
 
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