Demaree swarmed

[Repwoc]

I arrived at my out apiary this morning to find one of my Demareed hives swarming. They settled on a dock plant ~ 20 m from the hive so are now safely in a nuc. They were Demareed ~ 3 weeks ago. I last inspected them on Saturday 22nd May and there were no swarm preps, just the expected QCs in the UBB. I had decided to let them raise a Q in the UBB so left a couple of QCs.

When I opened up the parent hive I found the blue marked Q in the LBB, so they must have swarmed from the UBB. There were two emerged QCs in the UBB.

So from now on I'll be careful not to leave more than one QC in the UBB.

 

[Swarm]

I would have probably split into two nucs and have an extra queen banked just in case but you've got that now
Well trained bees too.

 

[Repwoc]

I would have probably split into two nucs and have an extra queen banked just in case but you've got that now
Well trained bees too.

lol - yes.

 

[jeff33]

Nothing is guaranteed with beekeeping. Gonna check mine tomorrow just to make sure.

 

[Worker bee]

In my experience any hive left with more than one queen cell will swarm but saying that I just had a nuc with multiple cells the first emerged and stung the rest of the cells, but last year I had nucs with two cells swarm. Also this year I had a weak hive with multiple what I saw as supersedure cells swarm, it had five frames now has two and a virgin queen. One cell per hive or nuc for me now because no fixed rules in beekeeping. With the nuc this year I was lucky it was a batch of cells I was going to use but took advice from someone elce to cage them on the 12th day. Next time I'll cage as soon as capped. So on the 6th day. I think the method you used requires one cell up top but I'm sure lots of new beeks miss a cell and they end up swarming

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

In my experience any hive left with more than one queen cell will swarm I think the method you used requires one cell up top

In my experience with Demarre (I do quite a few every year) leaving multiple QC's in the top box does not cause swarming Most years I have a handful which raise queens from multiple cells and get them mated in the top box, then depending on the age of the queen in the bottom box I either take the top box away as a new colony or introduc e the bottom queen to a gate post and leave them with the new queen.

 

[jeff33]

Just checked the local apiary, 1 hive demaree 3 weeks ago has charged Qcs in the bottom and I had to perform an A/S. Another one is doing great, may need to do a 2nd demaree pretty soon. I found a virgin in the top box of this one and just made a 2 frames nuc with her. 3rd hive demaree 3 weeks ago is doing as planned but no Qcs in the top box.

 

[user 819]

I have to hold my hands up and say I did mess up one year and ended up with a 2 Q hive and they didn't swarm.

I carried out not a full a Demeree and must have also moved up some eggs young larvae, often I only move sealed brood up and find that is enough to keep the Q in LBB happy as long as she doesn't outlay the rotation of combs. I was lax and the UBB raised a Q which I didn't notice as no cell remains were left, any how she mated ok as the top box had a top entrance to allow drones out. With nothing covering the feed hole she could have gone where she cared to except the full super of stores acted as an upper QX.

My laxness was I only bother looking in the UBB if I deem combs in the LBB need rotating up and then I move combs from the UBB down, won't even draw the combs out to look but peek down the seam to see if brood is present or not before lifting out an empty or almost brood less comb. Hence I missed the new laying Q until I realised there was more brood looking down the seams then there should be, so we aren't all infallible but as JBK says the UBB of a Demeree doesn't cause swarming.

 

[jeff33]

so we aren't all infallible but as JBK says the UBB of a Demeree doesn't cause swarming.

I agree, I had 3 hives running with 2 queens last year and no swarming.

I think this year having the queen and flyers confined for such a long time is probably triggering a lot more swarming just so they can pass the time!!

 

[Worker bee]

In my experience with Demarre (I do quite a few every year) leaving multiple QC's in the top box does not cause swarming Most years I have a handful which raise queens from multiple cells and get them mated in the top box, then depending on the age of the queen in the bottom box I either take the top box away as a new colony or introduc e the bottom queen to a gate post and leave them with the new queen.

I've got to try that method. I'm going to try it next year. I'm curious as to why they don't swarm with a queen in the bottom and a cell in the top? All that separates is an excluder and super and empty brood. That would suggest to swarm the queen has to come into contact with a capped queen cell and the workers don't dictate swarming and she decides if its OK to leave or sting the cell and the workers don't trigure it. But can control it to the point of capping. I was amazed my superceeding hive with 5 frames swarmed this year. No laying queen low population but swarmed

 

[Repwoc]

In my experience with Demarre (I do quite a few every year) leaving multiple QC's in the top box does not cause swarming

the UBB of a Demeree doesn't cause swarming.

Well I guess my Demaree that swarmed is the exception to the rule. There were multiple emerged QCs in the UBB. The original marked Q was still present and there were no swarm preps in the LBB. So it was the UBB that swarmed with a VQ. I watched them swarm (from ~15 m away), so I know which hive they came from. After the swarm had left, there were a lot of bees fanning at the top entrance and some fanning at the bottom entrance.

 

[Worker bee]

Well I guess my Demaree that swarmed is the exception to the rule. There were multiple emerged QCs in the UBB. The original marked Q was still present and there were no swarm preps in the LBB. So it was the UBB that swarmed with a VQ. I watched them swarm (from ~15 m away), so I know which hive they came from. After the swarm had left, there were a lot of bees fanning at the top entrance and some fanning at the bottom entrance.

This is why I haven't tried it yet because I cannot afford to lose a strong hive at the moment. I don't trust it because everything I've tried so far suggests if you have one queen and a capped cell they can and will swarm. I'd like to know the thinking behind it and why I should use it above other methods

 

[Repwoc]

This is why I haven't tried it yet because I cannot afford to lose a strong hive at the moment. I don't trust it because everything I've tried so far suggests if you have one queen and a capped cell they can and will swarm. I'd like to know the thinking behind it and why I should use it above other methods

I have several others with VQs (hopefully getting laid this week) in the UBB. At least one of them had multiple sealed cells in the UBB and the first to emerge killed the others by stinging, if I have interpreted the evidence correctly:


The hive that swarmed had multiple emerged QCs, ie the first to emerge didn't kill the rest. It seems to be safe to let them raise one VQ in the UBB. In fact I'm experimenting with adding a VQ that emerged in my incubator to see if I can use a Demaree UBB to mate Qs raised by grafting. I also intend trying to use a Demaree UBB as a cell starter/finisher. Obviously I won't let them raise their own QCs for that; I will add the grafts only after all brood in the UBB is capped.

 

[Antipodes]

This is why I haven't tried it yet because I cannot afford to lose a strong hive at the moment. I don't trust it because everything I've tried so far suggests if you have one queen and a capped cell they can and will swarm. I'd like to know the thinking behind it and why I should use it above other methods

I've only ever removed all cells above the excluder in a Demaree, but it probably depends on several factors including the swarmness of your bees. Not talking Demaree here, but my bees always swarmed if I left more than one queen cell, others talk of never seeing it. Some of those swarms end up very tiny too. I've changed the genetics in many hives now, so I probably wouldn't see it as much, however, because I have "learnt" from the past, I don't now leave more than one cell anyhow.

 

[user 819]

I can understand a swarm possibly leaving in the UBB if multiple QC's were left.

 

[jeff33]

In fact I'm experimenting with adding a VQ that emerged in my incubator to see if I can use a Demaree UBB to mate Qs raised by grafting. I also intend trying to use a Demaree UBB as a cell starter/finisher. Obviously I won't let them raise their own QCs for that; I will add the grafts only after all brood in the UBB is capped.

That's what I do and it works well. I tend to fully cover the access hole between the boxes (I use the JBM board) 6h b4 the graft is introduced and leave it blocked for 48h afterwards. B4 introducing the graft I will shake another 4-5 frames worth of bees from the lower box into the ubb.
I have done the same principle for introducing a VQ, block the hole for 6-12h so they are hopelessly q- and introduce the virgin (I use an introduction cage, didn't try to run it in).

 

[GuyNir]

That's what I do and it works well. I tend to fully cover the access hole between the boxes (I use the JBM board) 6h b4 the graft is introduced and leave it blocked for 48h afterwards. B4 introducing the graft I will shake another 4-5 frames worth of bees from the lower box into the ubb.
I have done the same principle for introducing a VQ, block the hole for 6-12h so they are hopelessly q- and introduce the virgin (I use an introduction cage, didn't try to run it in).

You can run a VQ in straight, they won’t notice her (provided she’s very young, less than ~48hr)

 

[drex]

For me I try to work out why they produced the queen cells. If queen less they produce emergency cells, they have. No intentions to swarm, so usually don't. Supercedur,e cells are produced to replace a failing queen. Again no intention to swarm.. Swarm cells and they intend to swarm, so I will reduce to one.
The failure is when I interpret their intention wrong, or the bees just doing what bees do

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

In my experience with Demarre (I do quite a few every year) leaving multiple QC's in the top box does not cause swarming Most years I have a handful which raise queens from multiple cells and get them mated in the top box, then depending on the age of the queen in the bottom box I either take the top box away as a new colony or introduce the bottom queen to a gate post and leave them with the new queen.

' and get them mated in the top box': this sounds like getting multiple queens mated without removing them from the top box. I've never heard of that. Have I misunderstood?

'or introduce the bottom queen to a gate post ': sorry, just so I'm clear, you cull the bottom queen and the new queen from the top box now heads the whole colony?

 

[jeff33]

'or introduce the bottom queen to a gate post ': sorry, just so I'm clear, you cull the bottom queen and the new queen from the top box now heads the whole colony?

Yes you can do that by re-uniting into 1 colony. As you do that towards the end of the season you go back down to 1 single BB. Its also a good way for re-queening feisty colonies or other.