Deep Brood Box or Not?

[SuffolkPaul]

Being a beginner in most respects, although i consider myself to be well read, having already attended Bee Keeping course a while ago. I have now reach the point of buying my first hive and joining the local Bee association, off to a good start one thinks! (how hard can this bee)

So my pertinent question is this, for my first hive should i use my new National Standard Brood Box (in cedar) or my new National "Deep Brood" box (in cedar).

I bought two Brood boxes for the start of the season expecting to be involved in an "Artificial swarm" in later months, and being a former Boy Scout I'm prepared (nearly)

So deep or normal? this is the question? Pro's or con's would be nice?

Kind Regards to all

 

[kighill]

The only problem you will have is when you do an artificial swarm.
I am moving over to National 14x12 it is an easy problem to overcome though if you buy an eke for your spare brood box then both are 14x12.
It is possible to use your standard brood box and still do an artificial swarm into the 14x12 but the bees will make comb at the bottom of the smaller frames and this will be a nuisance.

 

[enrico]

I don't use deep but wish I had. Go deep if you can lift a full box without help.
E

 

[Little John]

You don't say how you're acquiring your bees - if you're buying a nuc, then to a large extent that will dictate your initial box size. As kighill says, putting frames into a box which is too deep for them will cause the bees to draw comb below those frames. There are ways to avoid this, but they're a tad complex for someone who's just setting out.

I also prefer extra-deep (or even extra-extra-deep) boxes, but this is a very controversial subject area.

Very best of luck.
LJ

 

[Erichalfbee]

I started with standard Nationals but moved over to 14x12s the following season
A lot of people like brood and a half, or indeed double brood, as it makes it easy to do a split and and extremely easy to check for swarm cells by simply tilting the top box up and looking at the bottom bars. This works only if you don't mind losing the odd swarm because bees don't invariably put swarm cells there but usually.

 

[REDWOOD]

You need prolific queens to fill them otherwise you get too much honey stored in them, never need to feed much in autumn, they are heavy to move unless you use poly, I couldn't really say if they reduce swarming as that is usually mismanagement in any hive but generally they do or prolong it. The likelihood of getting a nuc with 14x12 frames is vertically non existent but not a real problem that can be overcome quite easily.
You are going to either love them or hate them, something like marmite [emoji4]


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[drex]

I prefer to use standard national brood boxes, but run double brood. More versatile. Friend asked me to find a difficult queen for him. He did not tel me he runs 14x12. I found the frames ver unwieldy, but it was a one off. I did find her, once he stopped looking over my shoulder!

 

[Jed D]

There's a lot to learn in the world of beekeeping , so in your first year, I'd keep everything simple...

Everything needs to be interchangeable, including frames...

I think most of us start out with standard nationals , hence the name...
So unless you have a 14x12 nuc on order , get another standard brood box...

As to which Brood box you use... You won't know what you like till you use it..

The basic's in bees are the same ' but everyone does things differently.

Which box size is better ??? personal choice

Standard national , easy to use ( light weight ) but could be a touch small for some Queens...

14x12 or jumbo,, you can have very big colonies in a 14x12 ' but can still lose large swarms..

 

[domino]

Ultimately the type of hive comes down to personal preference, but here are my experiences.

When I first started I used standard national boxes but quickly thought they were too small so in year two I bought myself some 12x14 boxes.

About two years ago I started queen rearing and found it much easier to do hive manipulation on the smaller national frame size for a number of reasons:

1. the small frames means you're removing fewer resources if you remove a frame from a hive.

2. making nucs just feels easier because they are smaller.

3. I use foundationless hives and although I'm sure some people do this with 12x14 frames I feel more comfortable using a standard frame.

I'm now back on all standard national typically running double, sometimes triple, broad. The downside is the number of frames you have to inspect, but I find national standard more flexible.

As I said - horses for courses.

 

[SuffolkPaul]

Thanks everyone

Thanks everyone

I consider the above sage advice.

So i think i shall speak to the experianced bee keeper who promised me some Bee's this April and decide upon the type of frames the Bee's shall arrive on. After reading the above I shall consider carefully.

Best to All

Paul

 

[Eyeman]

I run both standard cedar nationals, mostly as doubles and 14x12's mostly poly.
Each type is in a separate apiary so it's easy to make sure you have the right equipment in the right place.
I enjoy inspecting both types of hives and the poly 14x12's makes lifting easier.
I only use poly 14x12 brood boxes and everything else is standard wood, including the roofs so all interchangeable.

 

[Arfermo]

Hope you will stick to local mongrels for the time being?
Carniolans and other imports can bring problems.

Thanks everyone
I consider the above sage advice.
So i think i shall speak to the experianced bee keeper who promised me some Bee's this April and decide upon the type of frames the Bee's shall arrive on. After reading the above I shall consider carefully.
Best to All
Paul

 

[birdsandbees]

a few of years in and I was thinking about the coming season and whether to look at moving to 12 x 14 frames or brood and a half, I read some complicated maths somewhere regarding the number of eggs a queen 'could' lay in a day, the available cells, time from egg to bee etc, etc, which basically said that a standard brood box and frames would supply sufficient space for the queen to lay, as was said, I suppose you can get a very prolific queen plus filling of cells with stores which would reduce the free space.
I haven't had any issues with the standard box and frames so far and though I have a good mix of queens from Carnies and Buckfast to Mongrels, touch wood I've been okay.
what I was considering was going brood and a half on some of the more prolific hives and see what they do, but the faff of checking both during inspections is putting me off somewhat, especially with a history of back problems!

reading through the thread I'm inclined to go with the advice given, find out what stock you will be receiving and go with the standard box to see how you get on.

 

[WoodenBeam]

The other consideration is top or bottom bee space. As long as you use one or other at least supers will be interchangeable - I'm sure you will end up playing with both.
Or the other thing you could do is sell both and go commercial ��
You mention a local association, if you speak to them you may be able to see standard nationals and 14*12's prior to making your decision.

 

[seaknight]

I'm a relative beginner, having started 3 years ago with a 5 frame nucleus bought commercially. I'm now at 4 colonies (all on brood and a half or double brood).
These will be altered so that they are all on double brood in April, to split to create 8 hives.
The advantage of using DN4 frames is that it's the most popular system, at least in my part of the world (rural Carmarthenshire, South Wales) although the fiddle of using brood and a half can be quite tiresome, it also reduces the number of supers available for honey production.
Consequently I've ordered timber to make my own 14x12 brood boxes...
All hives will be migrated onto 14x12, with all supers containing Manley frames and the normal brood boxes used to create nucleui for sale or overwintering.
Have a read of David Cramp's Practical Beekeeping and his Beekeepers Field Guide, in addition to the other usual books. Hope this helps.
I'd also recommend doing the Basic Assessment, I passed mine in August last year and it gave a confidence boost, a bit of a shot in the arm after a bad season which produced a lot of stings and very little honey in reward.

 

[Millet]

I am new to this wonderful pass time also, i am currently into my second winter and my third spring, i started out with the standard national brood boxes and that is what i will be staying with.
I had several issues last year with artificial swarms and also a swarm from my own bees which i caught in a bait hive on a shed roof, the bait hive was standard national frames, that made things easy as all my other gear is standard national.
I easily united my queen and followers through news paper back to her original spot on standard brood frames after i had removed all the queen cells to another standard brood box to make a new colony.
The new colony failed as the queen did not hatch out and i ended up with a laying worker.
All the bees where shook on the floor, two frames full of drone brood where destroyed and the rest of the drawn out standard national are in storage ready for this year..
Now if i had one hive with 14x12 brood frames i think the excreta would hit the fan, i am no weakling but try carrying a standard brood box full of bees/brood and stores from one spot to another before you opt for a 12/14 set up.
Above all Good luck.

 

[JWF]

I started on standard nationals. Tried brood and a half and hated it - I found it to be a real faff.

Last year I had one colony on 14*12 and this year I've bought a few more so at least half my colonies will be on bigger boxes.

 

[Erichalfbee]

try carrying a standard brood box full of bees/brood and stores from one spot to another before you opt for a 12/14 set up.
Above all Good luck.

Luckily.......I have a man do that for me

 

[drex]

Tried brood and half and hated it. Most of my colonies now on double brood. Very versatile.

 

[Little John]

Maybe it's worth me chipping-in here that there are basically two types of beehive ... and no, I'm not talking about vertical vs horizontal, or framed vs top bar ... but rather, Static and Moveable.

If you're going to be moving hives regularly in order to follow the crops, then it makes sense to build hives from boxes which can easily be lifted individually. But - if your hives are intended to be static (or live on trailers etc) - then brood boxes no longer NEED to be lifted, and so lifting them becomes a non-issue. All you need be concerned about then is the weight of supers - or - if you're prepared to lift a comb-at-a-time rather than a box-at-a-time, even that needn't be a worry.

If - like me, you're on the tall side, and getting well-past your prime so that lifting weights becomes a serious concern - one solution is NOT to lift boxes at all. That implies using BIGGER boxes that never get to be lifted, that is - unless or until they're empty.

If you want to learn how box sizes (and thus oblong frame shapes and sizes) came to be decided upon in the post-Langstroth era, then there's a very good write-up in the History of American Beekeeping by Frank Chapman Pellett. There's an on-line copy of his book at: http://chestofbooks.com/animals/bees/History/Chapter-IV-The-Hive-Controversy.html

LJ