Combining a swarm with a very small queenless colony

[LJH]

Evening all..

I have a swarm that was hived about two months ago. Long story, became queenless for whatever reason so added a frame of eggs about 4 weeks ago. Queen cell was built but I think too late. Checked last week and doesn't look like they managed to raise a queen.

Went away yesterday morning, and loads of scouts around the bait hive I have in my tree. Came back late tonight, shone a torch in to see that a swarm has moved in. Don't know exactly when or how big, but have now placed the bait hive with the swarm in about 3 ft away from my other hive. My intention is to combine.

The bait hive is one I built and put about 7 or so national super frames with foundation in it. I intend to move the drawn or part drawn frames into a national super and combine.

I am thinking of closing up the entrance to the hive with the small colony (which is only a couple of frames of bees at most now) tomorrow evening and then transferring the new swarm on the super frames into a super and combining with newspaper. Just not sure if it's the right thing to do so soon, or shall I let them get established a bit? I just didn't want them to start laying in super frames which is going to happen if I leave them in the bait hive. Can they be combined at this early stage? I know it isn't advisable to disturb them yet, but if they can be combined now then this is my intention and preferred route. Looking for some opinions please, what would anyone recommend? Thanks in advance.

 

[dexter's shed]

added a frame of eggs about 4 weeks ago. Queen cell was built but I think too late. Checked last week and doesn't look like they managed to raise a queen.

doesn't look like and 100% sure are two different things, I'd leave the swarm alone for a bit, see if the queen was virgin or not, if she is, you'll have a few weeks before any eggs get laid, and even if it was a mated queen, just add a queen excluder between it and a brood box to eventually remove brood, once you are 100% sure you have no queen in the small colony, add those above the swarm, not the other way round

 

[oliver90owner]

Don't know exactly when or how big

Knowing the latter would help. Not sure when 'yesterday morning' was - same day as tonight or the day before? If a prime swarm, she could be already laying!

Any decent sized swarm could be drawing wild comb by now, if there is space in your offering. Needs sorting onto deeps soonest, I would think, especially if a prime swarm. There is always the risk of them absconding, if there is no open brood present, so care and precautions may need to be taken to reduce that risk.

Feeding after three days is a good idea and uniting is not a good idea at the present time. As DS says, you need to be 100% sure there is no queen in the remnants; you also need to be confident they have not dwindled due to disease.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Evening all..

I have a swarm that was hived about two months ago. Long story, became queenless for whatever reason so added a frame of eggs about 4 weeks ago. Queen cell was built but I think too late. Checked last week and doesn't look like they managed to raise a queen.

Went away yesterday morning, and loads of scouts around the bait hive I have in my tree. Came back late tonight, shone a torch in to see that a swarm has moved in. Don't know exactly when or how big, but have now placed the bait hive with the swarm in about 3 ft away from my other hive. My intention is to combine.

The bait hive is one I built and put about 7 or so national super frames with foundation in it. I intend to move the drawn or part drawn frames into a national super and combine.

I am thinking of closing up the entrance to the hive with the small colony (which is only a couple of frames of bees at most now) tomorrow evening and then transferring the new swarm on the super frames into a super and combining with newspaper. Just not sure if it's the right thing to do so soon, or shall I let them get established a bit? I just didn't want them to start laying in super frames which is going to happen if I leave them in the bait hive. Can they be combined at this early stage? I know it isn't advisable to disturb them yet, but if they can be combined now then this is my intention and preferred route. Looking for some opinions please, what would anyone recommend? Thanks in advance.

Other replies have covered the need to know more about the true Q state of the original and the new swarm. I just can't understand why you would use super frames in a bait hive. All that achieved was introducing an extra, unnecessary complication.
Was there a logical basis behind using super frames?

 

[Pete D]

If the small queenless and fading they will all be old bees and gone in a few weeks.
I would get swarm on proper frames, check after 3 days and feed, then tip out the small colony in front of it.

 

[LJH]

Was there a logical basis behind using super frames?

Yes - it's all I had left...

Sorry - arrival of the swarm was anytime between lunchtime Monday and Tuesday evening.

Thank you for the replies so far.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

so added a frame of eggs about 4 weeks ago. Queen cell was built but I think too late. Checked last week and doesn't look like they managed to raise a queen.

Why do you think too late? you put a test frame in four weeks ago - checked three weeks later, no way near enough time to establish whether the queen has emerged successfuly and mated or not.
Did the colony have a laying queen originally? when did you realise they were Q-?
I'd go with Pete D get the new swarm properly established on frames before deciding anything, if the othger colony is still Q- shake them out, much safer

 

[LJH]

I realised they were queenless shortly after being hived. Never saw a queen at all with the colony, so I think cast and the Q was killed on the mating flight. After the test frame was added, I checked about 7 days later and no sign of an emergency cell. Checked again about 12 days since test frame was put in, and there was a Q cell filled with royal jelly in the centre of the frame, but uncapped. I just assumed it was too late as it was uncapped at this late stage. Checked 3 weeks later and no signs of any queen. Was 12 days and still uncapped still just within the timeframe then or not would you think? And there is still a possibility of an undated Q in there? Thanks again.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

sounds like a desperation QC made by a laying worker - sort out your new swarm then shake out the old one in front of them - really is no point faffing around with a unite

 

[LJH]

sounds like a desperation QC made by a laying worker - sort out your new swarm then shake out the old one in front of them - really is no point faffing around with a unite

Thanks very much for the advice. I have just sorted out the new lot and they now have 7 brood frames. There is a lot of bees, looks like a large swarm. I'll do that then. Would you do it now or let them establish for a few days?
There are about 40/50 bees hanging around the original tree site of the bait hive still. Will these disperse gradually? They shouldn't have orientated from Monday afternoon until Tuesday evening should they? I think it is more likely that they came yesterday as there was only a vary tiny amount of comb drawn for such a lot of bees.
Thanks again.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

probably just a few late arriving scouts - give your new swarm time to settle then do the shake-out

 

[LJH]

probably just a few late arriving scouts - give your new swarm time to settle then do the shake-out

Thanks very much, greatly appreciated.