Cold torpor - how long until terminal ?

[boywonder]

Take the hypothetical situation that a beekeeper had decided over the previous weekend (it being v. cold) to move some hives between locations to help configure apiaries for the spring. This being, say, a complete village idiot, he then tries to manhandle a well provisioned hive (>30kg) off a flat-roof, down some slippy aluminium ladders, and from a height of about 7ft, loses control of the whole lot, and it comes crashing to the floor. Although adequately strapped, the boxes get smashed, frame lugs get smashed, glass crown board gets smashed, and possibly 50% of the bees go into the air (in temps of <5%c).

These then soon drop to the floor, as if dead.

In this scenario, Mr V.Idiot then clearly needs to sort out this catastrophe ASAP, mainly (having realised he first needs to suit-up to do this) as a matter of urgency, getting the frames into some fresh boxes, in order for the bees still on the frames to stabilise. Hopefully, the Queen is still in there. He can then get the dustpan out and start clearing up the mess (smashed woodwork/glass and, sadly, hundreds, if not thousands, of ‘dead’ bees).

Let’s imagine that, when doing the clearup (say 15 minutes later), he finds the Queen ‘dead’ in the pile of bees on the floor.

This illustrative example paints a picture of how a Queen might succumb to the cold.

Given it could theoretically happen, therefore, consider that a friend of mine told me that he had a Queen succumb to the cold this weekend, after 15 minutes out of the hive (how, I am not sure ). He brought her inside, and put her into a glass on the windowsill. After a further 30 minutes, her body had uncurled, and her legs had started moving. With a bit more encouragement (he didn’t disclose the tactics), there was more activity still - leading him to believe the Queen might actually fully recover.

At that point, he decided to put the half-dead Queen into an apidea, with a good number of other bees, to attend to her. The hope here was that she would be brought around.

Sadly, the Queen died soon thereafter.

Tragic as that was, it does beg the question as to how long a bee can succumb to cold torpor, and still be successfully ‘brought around’. Although completely different biologically to mammals, might it also be fair to say that lack of oxygen to the haemolymph (i.e. the vascular system) would lead to organ failure/brain damage, to the extent that a bee - even if brought around - would be impaired to the extent they could no longer function properly ?

Basically, can bees be successfully recovered from ‘cold torpor’ and does anybody know roughly how long a bee can stay in this state without sustaining terminal damage ?

Just curious. Asking for my friend.

 

[blackcloud]

Is this friend real and the situation hypothetical?

 

[boywonder]

Is this friend real and the situation hypothetical?

Are you suggesting I am a village idot ?

 

[Wilco]

Don't know specifically for bees but lower temps mean lower metabolic demands which is why some people have survived being stuck in frozen lakes for a few hours. They generally had specialist help to recover.

However, there is a limit. For most organisms, if the water in their cells freezes, the crystals will burst their cell membranes and they will not recover. Some species have specialist adaptations to cope with/avoid this, bees are not, as far as I know, one of them.

I have a friend who put some bees in a jar in the freezer overnight for a course and the next day at the course they woke up part way through and started flying around in the jar. Haven't quite figured that one out.

 

[blackcloud]

No its just ''asking for a friend' is something you hear more at the chemist

 

[boywonder]

I have a friend who put some bees in a jar in the freezer overnight for a course and the next day at the course they woke up part way through and started flying around in the jar. Haven't quite figured that one out.

Wow !

 

[Erichalfbee]

Take the hypothetical situation that a beekeeper had decided over the previous weekend (it being v. cold) to move some hives between locations to help configure apiaries for the spring. This being, say, a complete village idiot, he then tries to manhandle a well provisioned hive (>30kg) off a flat-roof, down some slippy aluminium ladders, and from a height of about 7ft, loses control of the whole lot, and it comes crashing to the floor. Although adequately strapped, the boxes get smashed, frame lugs get smashed, glass crown board gets smashed, and possibly 50% of the bees go into the air (in temps of <5%c).

These then soon drop to the floor, as if dead.

In this scenario, Mr V.Idiot then clearly needs to sort out this catastrophe ASAP, mainly (having realised he first needs to suit-up to do this) as a matter of urgency, getting the frames into some fresh boxes, in order for the bees still on the frames to stabilise. Hopefully, the Queen is still in there. He can then get the dustpan out and start clearing up the mess (smashed woodwork/glass and, sadly, hundreds, if not thousands, of ‘dead’ bees).

Let’s imagine that, when doing the clearup (say 15 minutes later), he finds the Queen ‘dead’ in the pile of bees on the floor.

This illustrative example paints a picture of how a Queen might succumb to the cold.

Given it could theoretically happen, therefore, consider that a friend of mine told me that he had a Queen succumb to the cold this weekend, after 15 minutes out of the hive (how, I am not sure ). He brought her inside, and put her into a glass on the windowsill. After a further 30 minutes, her body had uncurled, and her legs had started moving. With a bit more encouragement (he didn’t disclose the tactics), there was more activity still - leading him to believe the Queen might actually fully recover.

At that point, he decided to put the half-dead Queen into an apidea, with a good number of other bees, to attend to her. The hope here was that she would be brought around.

Sadly, the Queen died soon thereafter.

Tragic as that was, it does beg the question as to how long a bee can succumb to cold torpor, and still be successfully ‘brought around’. Although completely different biologically to mammals, might it also be fair to say that lack of oxygen to the haemolymph (i.e. the vascular system) would lead to organ failure/brain damage, to the extent that a bee - even if brought around - would be impaired to the extent they could no longer function properly ?

Basically, can bees be successfully recovered from ‘cold torpor’ and does anybody know roughly how long a bee can stay in this state without sustaining terminal damage ?

Just curious. Asking for my friend.

Oh dear. Stan and I move a 14x12 off a roof in similar fashion every winter but have never lost control

 

[Blunt Spike]

I have a friend who put some bees in a jar in the freezer overnight for a course and the next day at the course they woke up part way through and started flying around in the jar. Haven't quite figured that one out.

The freezer was turned off?

There is a species of wood frog that can freeze solid.
They begin to produce an anti-freeze in their blood, made from glucose.

As the temperature continues to drop, this antifreeze is taken up into their cells. Inside each cell, the sugary syrup keeps the cells plump and strong, and prevents ice crystals from forming which would kill them.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Oh dear. Stan and I move a 14x12 off a roof in similar fashion every winter but have never lost control

Can't be having you and Stan losing control outside in winter Dani

 

[Sutty]

If you gather a few bees from outside a hive which haven't made it quite back & chilled overnight, or a bunch that are "drowned" floating on water & put them in a warm place, quite few that look pretty dead will revive. The ones with an extended proboscis never do.

 

[Wilco]

The freezer was turned off?

There is a species of wood frog that can freeze solid.
They begin to produce an anti-freeze in their blood, made from glucose.

As the temperature continues to drop, this antifreeze is taken up into their cells. Inside each cell, the sugary syrup keeps the cells plump and strong, and prevents ice crystals from forming which would kill them.

They were definitely frozen.

Yes, a few other species do similarly and certain single celled organisms can survive it too.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Can't be having you and Stan losing control outside in winter Dani

Only on my birthday

 

[Bluebell1985]

I’ve picked up a bee that appeared dead, that I saw 3-4 hours earlier in the same state. Between my hands she warmed up and flew off in a few minutes.

 

[pargyle]

They can, surprisingly, cope with temperatures close to zero for several hours ...however, at -2 degrees C they have only about an hour before they die.

 

[Garry R]

Bees have a small body mass and in isolation will reach a high or low ambient temperature quickly, Thinking logically it's what makes the difference between bees and wasps. A queen wasp hibernates alone, a queen bee clusters among the winter bees thus lowering the risk of succumbing to low temperatures such as we have had recently provided there are ample stores to generate the heat required to keep the colony alive. Knocking a hive over breaks the cluster and in this situation the bees go everywhere and are unlikely to reform the cluster due to the confusion and will become moribund rapidly in the cold. Although they may die in an hour their physical activity will be compromised even faster.

 

[Antipodes]

Take the hypothetical situation that a beekeeper had decided over the previous weekend (it being v. cold) to move some hives between locations to help configure apiaries for the spring. This being, say, a complete village idiot, he then tries to manhandle a well provisioned hive (>30kg) off a flat-roof, down some slippy aluminium ladders, and from a height of about 7ft, loses control of the whole lot, and it comes crashing to the floor. Although adequately strapped, the boxes get smashed, frame lugs get smashed, glass crown board gets smashed, and possibly 50% of the bees go into the air (in temps of <5%c).

These then soon drop to the floor, as if dead.

In this scenario, Mr V.Idiot then clearly needs to sort out this catastrophe ASAP, mainly (having realised he first needs to suit-up to do this) as a matter of urgency, getting the frames into some fresh boxes, in order for the bees still on the frames to stabilise. Hopefully, the Queen is still in there. He can then get the dustpan out and start clearing up the mess (smashed woodwork/glass and, sadly, hundreds, if not thousands, of ‘dead’ bees).

Let’s imagine that, when doing the clearup (say 15 minutes later), he finds the Queen ‘dead’ in the pile of bees on the floor.

This illustrative example paints a picture of how a Queen might succumb to the cold.

Given it could theoretically happen, therefore, consider that a friend of mine told me that he had a Queen succumb to the cold this weekend, after 15 minutes out of the hive (how, I am not sure ). He brought her inside, and put her into a glass on the windowsill. After a further 30 minutes, her body had uncurled, and her legs had started moving. With a bit more encouragement (he didn’t disclose the tactics), there was more activity still - leading him to believe the Queen might actually fully recover.

At that point, he decided to put the half-dead Queen into an apidea, with a good number of other bees, to attend to her. The hope here was that she would be brought around.

Sadly, the Queen died soon thereafter.

Tragic as that was, it does beg the question as to how long a bee can succumb to cold torpor, and still be successfully ‘brought around’. Although completely different biologically to mammals, might it also be fair to say that lack of oxygen to the haemolymph (i.e. the vascular system) would lead to organ failure/brain damage, to the extent that a bee - even if brought around - would be impaired to the extent they could no longer function properly ?

Basically, can bees be successfully recovered from ‘cold torpor’ and does anybody know roughly how long a bee can stay in this state without sustaining terminal damage ?

Just curious. Asking for my friend.

With queens, I've noticed the younger ones are tougher and more likely to recover/survive than older ones.

 

[Erichalfbee]

With queens, I've noticed the younger ones are tougher and more likely to recover/survive than older ones.

Bit like people, really

 

[Kaz]

I have a friend who put some bees in a jar in the freezer overnight for a course and the next day at the course they woke up part way through and started flying around in the jar. Haven't quite figured that one out.

Our association used to run a nosema day where members could bring bee samples for testing. Often a proportion of the samples would "wake up" at the event, meaning crushing them was no longer a humane option

 

[rolande]

With queens, I've noticed the younger ones are tougher and more likely to recover/survive than older ones.

Without noticeable negative effects to laying ability/longevity? Asking because there's been questions asked about cold (and heat) damage to queens in shipping for a long time.

 

[rolande]

I have a vague recollection of reading something about the Jersey Asian hornet group having issues freezing a nest to death which they'd captured. Obviously a different animal and not a solitary one either.