Cold storing honey frames

[pargyle]

so, should we really be encouraging beginners to sell fermenting honey?

With 75 hives, does CGF counts as a beginner anymore? should be in the general discussion.

It was a beginners question - best place for it was where beginners are likely to see it and the various sensible answers.

Whilst this comment is not directed at Mark the number of colonies you manage and the length of time you have been beekeeping does not alway relate directly to the amount of knowledge you have amassed.

 

[Curly green finger's]

Dani, it was my reply to your suggestion we expect sensible answers here, after comments by Eric about selling fermenting honey to customers. Fermenting honey is likely to have more than 20% moisture so does not meet requirements of current honey regulations for sale. not good advice for beginners.

Fair comment Mark. Personally as the frames are mostly capped, I'd just keep them at 8C and use them in your Nucs later on. Anything else seems a lot of effort for limited gain

Yes this was also an option I thought about, I don't really have the time to process, and @pargyle apologies but I have more practical experience than some beeks that have been beekeeping thrice my years, sometimes I don't portray myself as such with words.

 

[pargyle]

[QUOTE="Curly green finger's, post: 813315, member: 1881 @pargyle apologies but I have more practical experience than some beeks that have been beekeeping thrice my years, sometimes I don't portray myself as such with words.
[/QUOTE]
Like I said ... the comment was not directed at you ... I'm certain you knew the answer to your original beginners question and we are grateful that you continue to ask similar questions - they are of great benefit to the forum beginners; perhaps best to post them in this section though where they will be most appreciated.

 

[Moobee]

so, should we really be encouraging beginners to sell fermenting honey?

With 75 hives, does CGF counts as a beginner anymore? should be in the general discussion.

When is a beginner no longer a beginner? Number of years or number of hives? Or both?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

or neither in some cases

 

[Curly green finger's]

When is a beginner no longer a beginner? Number of years or number of hives? Or both?

We are all still beginner's in the bees eyes
5 years and your a seasoned beekeeper, but even that should be contradictory

 

[Erichalfbee]

We are all still beginner's in the bees eyes
5 years and your a seasoned beekeeper, but even that should be contradictory

It’s not that.
You are a bee farmer. You know full well what to do with those supers.
I presumed you had set the beginners a question and put it in the wrong section which is why I moved it.
Now it’s turned into a philosophical discussion.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Fermenting honey is likely to have more than 20% moisture so does not meet requirements of current honey regulations for sale.

Er, not quite.

In Schedule 1 of the Honey Regulations (England) 2015 eight compositional criteria of honey are given. Of interest to this discussion is number 8, but especially number 9:

Compositional criteria
8. It must not—
(a)have any foreign tastes or odours;
(b)have begun to ferment;
(c)have an artificially changed acidity;
(d)have been heated in such a way that the natural enzymes have been either destroyed or significantly inactivated.

9. Paragraph 8 does not apply to baker’s honey.

One other limit is prescribed for baker's honey:
2 Moisture content
(a) all honey except for honey specified in paragraph (b), (c) or (d) not more than 20%
(b) honey from heather (Calluna) not more than 23%
(c) baker's honey except for baker's honey from heather (Calluna) not more than 23%
(d) baker's honey from heather (Calluna)

Further down the page are defined limits for electrical conductivity, free acid, diastase activity and HMF content. Baker's honey is excluded from these limits, which are beyond (thankfully) our scope of interest for either honey or baker's.

From this I conclude that baker's honey must have a moisture content between 20 and 23%, and may have foreign odours or taste, have begun to ferment, have an artifically changed activity, or have been heated in such a way blah, blah.

A beginner ought to check the moisture % of honey as it goes into a bucket and to label the bucket: first, buy a refractometer; secondly, watch this how-to-use video from a former Seasonal Bee Inspector.

Anything unfermented between 19 and 20 I mix with something lower, perhaps 15 or 16, to reduce the overall %. Anything beginning to ferment is baker's and goes with honey from the cappings melter for sale at £18/kg.

 

[Curly green finger's]

OK.
Options
1. Use frames in nucs
2. Extract and use for home use cooking etc, not sell.
3.feed back to the bees as ericbeaumont suggested or different method.
I will be using the capped frames in nucs and the children are extracting the rest to cook with or for cups of tea home use.
Anymore options beginners?

 

[ericbeaumont]

some of the frames aren't fully capped and I have my concerns the uncapped will ferment in the comb looking at them there is heather mixed honey which hasn't been capped.

That was your concern in post 1, Mark: I'd extract the lot, check the moisture % and go from there. If it is fermenting, why not sell it as baker's? Depends if the volume warrants the faff, of course.

 

[Antipodes]

OK.
Options
1. Use frames in nucs
2. Extract and use for home use cooking etc, not sell.
3.feed back to the bees as ericbeaumont suggested or different method.
I will be using the capped frames in nucs and the children are extracting the rest to cook with or for cups of tea home use.
Anymore options beginners?

If the frames are mostly the same percentage uncapped, perhaps put them in the extractor (without uncapping the capped parts), at a very slow speed, to remove most of the uncapped honey, which would then leave the good capped honey. You could gently wash out those (now hopefully empty) cells if there has been fermenting, and bring the frames indoors to dry off.

 

[Mint Bee]

Er, not quite.

In Schedule 1 of the Honey Regulations (England) 2015 eight compositional criteria of honey are given. Of interest to this discussion is number 8, but especially number 9:

Compositional criteria
8. It must not—
(a)have any foreign tastes or odours;
(b)have begun to ferment;
(c)have an artificially changed acidity;
(d)have been heated in such a way that the natural enzymes have been either destroyed or significantly inactivated.

9. Paragraph 8 does not apply to baker’s honey.

One other limit is prescribed for baker's honey:
2 Moisture content
(a) all honey except for honey specified in paragraph (b), (c) or (d) not more than 20%
(b) honey from heather (Calluna) not more than 23%
(c) baker's honey except for baker's honey from heather (Calluna) not more than 23%
(d) baker's honey from heather (Calluna)

Further down the page are defined limits for electrical conductivity, free acid, diastase activity and HMF content. Baker's honey is excluded from these limits, which are beyond (thankfully) our scope of interest for either honey or baker's.

From this I conclude that baker's honey must have a moisture content between 20 and 23%, and may have foreign odours or taste, have begun to ferment, have an artifically changed activity, or have been heated in such a way blah, blah.

A beginner ought to check the moisture % of honey as it goes into a bucket and to label the bucket: first, buy a refractometer; secondly, watch this how-to-use video from a former Seasonal Bee Inspector.

Anything unfermented between 19 and 20 I mix with something lower, perhaps 15 or 16, to reduce the overall %. Anything beginning to ferment is baker's and goes with honey from the cappings melter for sale at £18/kg.

yes I know all this, BUT you did not included this in advice to beginners. I've never sold or seen Bakers honey for sale . You did not define you were selling as bakers honey, it was a high level comment that inferred you were selling fermenting honey without the cavate that there are still restrictions in what can legally be sold.

It does show the difficulty in how we communicate 'our' accumulated learnt knowledge to those learning the hobby - not enough info can be misleading, too much is overwhelming.

The additional information provided is excellent advice BTW, it provides the context and solutions. If you are getting >£8 lb for Bakers honey I'm impressed!

 

[Amari]

Try this: block the entrance, put the supers on the floor, put on a thick sheet of 450mm sq. plastic sheet with a pencil hole in the middle, add an upper entrance, put back brood box, wait two weeks or so.
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/clearcombstores.html

The link (bullet points 4 & 9) suggests leaving the bottom entrance open as well as the new upper entrance. Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[ericbeaumont]

suggests leaving the bottom entrance open as well as the new upper entrance. Doesn't make sense to me.

I agree, it should be closed.

The risk of an open bottom entrance (if this is done in spring) is that a mouse may be tempted in on a cold night to wreck combs.

It's certainly wasteful, because bees will continue to use the bottom entrance and load that bottom box with fresh pollen.