clumsiness making bees aggressive

[SteveHLD]

This is my first year beekeeping. I have a MB Langstroth hive with medium plastic frames and use Marigold gloves and a fair amount of smoke. I find it very difficult to lift the heavier frames, it seems that my pincer grip is not strong enough. I have tried gripping the frame by the upper and outermost part of the frame next to the lug and this helps me pull the frame but it is very difficult to inspect. So I fumble and on several occasions I have dropped the frame back from whence it came. In early April this happened and the bees threatened anyone who came within about 10 metres of the hive. I left it alone and it swarmed a couple of times or more and that sorted the problem out! Today, a couple of frames were stuck to the roof and they crashed back as I lifted the lid (sure I should have been using an inner cover). The bees subsequently buzz me and follow me many metres away. Since this hive (came from one of the swarms and normally well tempered) is on my allotment I need to do something fast. Is there a quick fix? Would an artificial swarm give the foragers something else to worry about and nothing to defend? How can I become less clumsy? I will mount a vigil tomorrow to keep my allotment neighbours from harm.

 

[user 6228]

This is my first year beekeeping. I have a MB Langstroth hive with medium plastic frames and use Marigold gloves and a fair amount of smoke. I find it very difficult to lift the heavier frames, it seems that my pincer grip is not strong enough. I have tried gripping the frame by the upper and outermost part of the frame next to the lug and this helps me pull the frame but it is very difficult to inspect. So I fumble and on several occasions I have dropped the frame back from whence it came. In early April this happened and the bees threatened anyone who came within about 10 metres of the hive. I left it alone and it swarmed a couple of times or more and that sorted the problem out! Today, a couple of frames were stuck to the roof and they crashed back as I lifted the lid (sure I should have been using an inner cover). The bees subsequently buzz me and follow me many metres away. Since this hive (came from one of the swarms and normally well tempered) is on my allotment I need to do something fast. Is there a quick fix? Would an artificial swarm give the foragers something else to worry about and nothing to defend? How can I become less clumsy? I will mount a vigil tomorrow to keep my allotment neighbours from harm.

use bare hands and less smoke. twist the lid before removing and wait at least 5 second before removing the lid.

 

[Beanwood]

Sorry, if these are silly questions, but I am unfamiliar with your experience - are you a member of a local group, and has anyone ever shown you how to inspect?

Certainly using nationals (As I do) a crown board (Inner cover) prevents the frames lifting when the roof is removed. The frames can then be eased gently away from the crown board if they are stuck, without dropping them too far.

Are you removing a frame (Typically at one end), and putting it to one side during the inspection, so you have space to 'slide' the frame away from the next one. This has two purposes - 1st a better grip, and 2nd it stops you 'rolling' the bees, which they dislike. (Don't forget to put it back!!)

Are you only inspecting when necessary - ask yourself why you're opening the box!. Typically once per week at the moment should be enough.

Are the bees missing a queen, space, or food - any of these would make them grumpy.

 

[Beanwood]

use bare hands and less smoke. twist the lid before removing and wait at least 5 second before removing the lid.

I think I'd say only use sufficient smoke e.g. to clear them away from the top bars whilst you move them. When putting frames back in, hold them nearer the middle than the ends - that way your gloves won't get caught under the runners.

 

[BeeJayBee]

This is my first year beekeeping. I have a MB Langstroth hive with medium plastic frames and use Marigold gloves and a fair amount of smoke.

Make sure your gloves are a tight fit or wear a pair of thin latex or nitrile gloves over the top to help mould the gloves to the shape of your fingers.

Try using less smoke and perhaps make some cover cloths. They're easy enough to make. Get some plain tea towels and some bits of wood -dowels or battens. Fold each end of the tea towel over to make a channel for the bit of wood and sew it. Slide in the wood, slide out again to wash the cover cloth. Don't be tempted to buy the ones you see for sale that have a gap in the middle, they don't work. You need two cover cloths for an inspection, roll one forwards over the top of the frames as you roll the other back leaving just enough space to see a couple of frame tops.

I find it very difficult to lift the heavier frames, it seems that my pincer grip is not strong enough. I have tried gripping the frame by the upper and outermost part of the frame next to the lug and this helps me pull the frame but it is very difficult to inspect. So I fumble and on several occasions I have dropped the frame back from whence it came.

Who taught you to do an inspection, and how were you advised to lift out frames? This isn't a criticism, but it isn't really clear what you're doing.

Langstroths are easier to use when they have only 9 frames, it leaves enough space to pull out a frame without rolling the bees. You can fill the space with a proper dummy frame - a thin one as sold by most suppliers, not the ones sold on ebay. There are pictures here http://theapiarist.org/tag/fat-dummies/

 

[The Drone Ranger]

try a frame grip
http://www.thorne.co.uk/hardware-clothing/tools?product_id=5176
and a frame rest
http://www.thorne.co.uk/hardware-clothing/tools?product_id=1783

 

[wessexmario]

Firstly, it's not clear that you have a roof AND a coverboard. (you should have both)
When removing the coverboard, first ease each corner with a hive tool, then SLIDE and/or TWIST without lifting, once you're sure that there are no frames stuck to it, only then lift it off.
Do the same with each box, as you work down the hive.
Otherwise, you'll not discover that any frame top bars are stuck until it's too late.

T I have tried gripping the frame by the upper and outermost part of the frame next to the lug and this helps me pull the frame but it is very difficult to inspect. So I fumble and on several occasions I have dropped the frame back from whence it came.

If you have a dummy board, always take that out first, and slide frames into the available space before lifting.
What you describe doesn't sound like a good solid grip, you ought to be grasping the lugs, sliding your index fingers (some find thumbs easier) under the lugs as you lift the frame.

After taking the first frame out, put it on a hanger, the hive stand or gently lay it on the coverboard, while doing the remaining frames. That will give you plenty of space in the box to slide each frame into the available space before lifting, you'll not only have less chance of rolling the bees (which also annoys them), separating the frames will also make it much less likely to catch the next one to jerk it as you lift, and it will give you a little more room to wrap fingers around the lugs.

ps. "slide each frame" (sounds too simple) you may need to use your hive tool to lever the gap between frames to separate them if your bees like a "sticky" hive. but again, the principle is to move sideways to separate the propolis before lifting.

 

[B+.]

This is my first year beekeeping. I have a MB Langstroth hive with medium plastic frames and use Marigold gloves and a fair amount of smoke.

Unless the clumsiness is due to some medical condition, I think you are suffering a lack of confidence. Medium frames are quite light and should be easy to handle. The Langstroth lugs are smaller than National but a J-type hive tool might make it easier for you to lift the first frame out.
It really isn't necessary to use a lot of smoke. Some bees need a little and some bees don't need it at all. I rarely even take a smoker with me to the apiary.
I think you just need a mentor to guide you through some of the subtleties of keeping bees. You could ask for help at your local association or in the "Mentor wanted" section of the forum.

 

[Finman]

.
If you crush bees, the poison odor is in the air, and bees attack.
Rubber covers are difficult because bees hit stings into gloves and odor of poison irritates bees.

It is same with fingers. When they has odor of poison, fingers must be washed.

But I have had many times hives, that handling without gloves has been impossible. Tens of stings in one inspection. It is just dangerous when bees become mad.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

This is my first year beekeeping. I have a MB Langstroth hive with medium plastic frames and use Marigold gloves and a fair amount of smoke. I find it very difficult to lift the heavier frames, it seems that my pincer grip is not strong enough. I have tried gripping the frame by the upper and outermost part of the frame next to the lug and this helps me pull the frame but it is very difficult to inspect. So I fumble and on several occasions I have dropped the frame back from whence it came. In early April this happened and the bees threatened anyone who came within about 10 metres of the hive. I left it alone and it swarmed a couple of times or more and that sorted the problem out! Today, a couple of frames were stuck to the roof and they crashed back as I lifted the lid (sure I should have been using an inner cover). The bees subsequently buzz me and follow me many metres away. Since this hive (came from one of the swarms and normally well tempered) is on my allotment I need to do something fast. Is there a quick fix? Would an artificial swarm give the foragers something else to worry about and nothing to defend? How can I become less clumsy? I will mount a vigil tomorrow to keep my allotment neighbours from harm.

Oh dear, your first year sounds traumatic.
To be honest a hive containing a colony like that is not suitable to be kept on an allotment. The quick fix is to take it somewhere else away from members of the public and more than 3 miles from the present location.
You need training in handling bees, something which being a member of the local beekeeping association should easily fix. Are you by any chance trying to start beekeeping alone?
This forum will be helpful but there is no substitute for hands on training under the guidance and watchful eye of a skilled mentor, or even a partly skilled one who has the right handling technique to pass on to you.

 

[Fatbee]

I agree, if you keep bees on an allotment you need to be top of your game. Sounds like you lost several swarms which will be residing somewhere potentially causing nuisance. I would never be able to deal with the stress if allotment keeping!

 

[SteveHLD]

I have been on a practical course, wooden National frames and I seemed to have no difficulty lifting them (but the frames did not stick together like mine - same race of bees). I attend my local group practical beginners sessions when I can. I do remove one frame and put it in a large plastic storage type box with no lid. I sometimes use a cover cloth - but it is just a double layer of curtain backing fabric. How large should the bits of wood be at either end of your more professional cover cloth? If I use 9 frames then I find it difficult to get them evenly spaced and once they made a sheet of wild comb between the frames where I forgot to straighten them - which was quite an achievement! The plastic cover / sort of crown board for an MB is flexible to you can only peel it off. You can not use it with a rapid feeder. In order to reduce the wax between frames I have recently put a light smear of vaseline on the top of the frames, but am careful that I do not to put on the lugs. It is too early to know where it helps. If the frame is heavy I may try lifting one end first, is that rolling? Perhaps the plastic frames make it more difficult? I do lift straight up and curl my index finger under the frame. Plastic frames are brilliant for seeing eggs and brood, I would be disappointed to have to use wax foundation. But loads of other people must use my set-up and not have difficulty. I really could not manage without smoke, it makes all the difference and I have thought of not using gloves but I would need calm bees that have never been jolted. I am nervous my nature. but I love the bees. If I get stung through my glove I remove the sting and smoke the area to mask the alarm chemical. Both this hive and the previous one were perfectly behaved until I jolted them, so change in temperament seems immediate. Yes I should get a mentor. So what should I do to the hive? Is the only option to move it away? I usually inspect every week. How long should I wait before I inspect it again? Sometimes the frames between boxes get stuck together and I have the same problem - I shall try rotating the top box a bit before lifting it off.

 

[wessexmario]

Making sure that the frames are left spaced correctly is a big factor for minimising how much brace comb or propolis they add, which will make it easier the next time you inspect. Quickly scraping off all the top bars and the coverboard every time also helps keep on top of it, if you leave it, there's even more then for next time.


What type of frames do you have?

If Hoffman or Manley frames then they are self spacing; If you have SN1's or similar with the parallel side bars that are no wider than the top bar, then you need to use spacers fitted on the frames, without them it's difficult to re-space the frames exactly. (or you can use cassellated spacers on the hive box - I'm not a fan of them myself, because they force you to lift before separating)

Whatever type of frame (unless using castellations) after inspecting they should be left squeezed quite tight against each other by using the hive tool as a lever between the last frame and the box.
A millimetre or two extra gap between frames might not seem much to us - it's a gaping hole for a draft or for a weak comb attachment to a bee!

After squeezing the frames together, a little extra space at one end of the box is no matter, you can help fill it by using a dummy frame if you have one.
If you find they continually build brace comb in certain places, check your bee spaces, anything not between 6-9mm will encourage them to fill it.
Many colonies just love sticking everything together with propolis; You can't prevent it, the secret is learning the easy ways to work with it without disturbing the bees.

 

[wessexmario]

If the frame is heavy I may try lifting one end first, is that rolling?

Lifting one lug first makes the frame rotate so the risk is that that the bottom of the sidebar on that side could crush bees against the side of the box - not good as it agitates them, so try to lift frames square.

"Rolling" is when you lift a frame vertically too closely to the next frame, the bees are sandwiched between the two frames and the bees are rolled between the two comb surfaces.

What type of hive tool do you have? is it a traditional angled scraper, or a J type?
I'd recommend you get hold of and get used to using both types. They're subtly different, each has it's advantages but you can only work out your personal preference by using each for a while...

 

[SteveHLD]

I have done a practical course (same bee breed as mine) and attend my local Group practical sessions (for beginners) when I can - National hives. I do not seem to have a problem there, but then the frames do not get stuck between boxes. The MB equivalent to the crown board is a sheet of clear flexible plastic and there is really no option but to peel it off. I generally get stung 0 to one time per examination session (worst 4 on one day, this year) and I have 2-3 hives. If I get stung I push the sting off and smoke the area to reduce the effect of the alarm chemical. I do lift a frame out and put it in a large plastic box at the start of an examination. I have tried using 9 frames but find it difficult to space the frames evenly at the end. When I lift I do curl my index finger around, it is the lift that I find difficult - I suppose I need to do the finger curl at the time time as the lift but i am worried about getting stung as I push bees out of the way. I could not manage without smoke. I need unjolted bees before I could think of going gloveless. It is the initial pulling it up I find difficult and I do use a hive tool to ease the frames apart. I am trying to put a light smear of vaseline on top of the frames but it is too early to know whether it helps with the wax sticking. I will try twisting the roof or the top box before lifting it off. Although with a MB hive you do need to lift the box about 4mm to get it over the raised lip. I have tried lifting one end of the frame first (is this rolling?) but it does not help much. I do not have any physical disease but I am of nervous disposition. However I do love the bees. I will get anxious re-examing the defensive hive, but not enough to sweat. I usually make weekly inspections - how long should I leave things before examining this buzzy hive? Will I make it more aggressive if I examine whilst it is out of sorts? I have used Langstroth wooden frames and I think, although not certain that I had much the same difficulty. Could it be the short lugs? or will the plastic frames make my difficulty worse? I would hate to abandon the plastic frames as they make it so easy to see the brood and eggs. Could I use a frame grip with plastic frames? Is the only option to move the hive or would it be worth trying to separate the foragers as in doing an artificial swarm? I would use a Horsley board as I do not have enough room to do anything else. or will all the bees be on high alert? Is there a quick fix? The bees were of good temperament before the dropped frames. So the transformation has been immediate. Yes I need a mentor and yes I think it better to find a better site to keep my bees.

 

[SteveHLD]

Oops I posted twice, I thought my quick reply had not worked. I use a J shaped tool. I do not routinely scrape the wax of the top of the frame as I thought the bees would just replace it. My burning question is how to manage my current situation.

 

[wessexmario]

I think most of your problems can be solved if you have a one-to-one with a experienced mentor who can show you a number of different ways to use a hive tool, and show you how to lift frames confidently. Part of the problem may be that you've been taught on slightly different kit, and it's the subtle differences between that kit and what you have that might need a different technique.

I don't think moving the hives to another site is necessarily required, unless they're aggressive when you're not inspecting.

You'll get the confidence with experience, you need to learn/discover some of the subtleties like which of the at least a dozen different ways of using either end of either of the two styles of hive tool to lever one stuck frame away from another is least likely to upset the bees (or damage the comb or frames!) and that really is best done hands on with a mentor - on your hive.

 

[wessexmario]

but i am worried about getting stung as I push bees out of the way.

You rarely get stung because of handling a frame, it happens much more because of banging about or crushing a bee.
If you're gentle you can push them with the back of a finger and they'll just scurry off somewhere else. Start by putting your finger on a clear bit of wood somewhere (the side of the box if need be) and gently slide to where you want your finger to be. If they want to be where you want to be, just pause a second, they'll move on. Don't worry if they walk over your glove, if you're wearing latex they can't smell you through it, so gentle movements and they won't get annoyed.
There's no rush, be calm, and the bees will be calm with you.

 

[Norton Caff]

I have some bees that I'm requeening and they have been unpleasant. I found that I had to concentrate on staying calm and gentle when they attacked. My reflex was to move faster and more abruptly and this, of course, made things worse. Wiping any stings off with a smelly leaf seemed to work. Turn away from the hive when you do it just to help you to calm down. Make sure you are confident that your suit and gloves give good protection. I can't work barehanded because of a strong skin reaction to stings so wearing gloves has to be countered with more observance. Above all get a mentor. One to one is the best way to learn. You learn the little things as well as the theory and become more confident and positive in your handling. Good luck and don't give up!

 

[SteveHLD]

I have things arranged so that the bee flight path is directly over my allotment. I have just stomped around and dug on my neighbours plots and had no reaction from the bees. Do bees fail to react to things that are out of sight? I think I will wimp out of doing an inspection this week and get some help.