Celotex insulation

[Thymallus]

.
But the result tells me, am I right in my lowsy beekeeping.
In Finland too young guys say that I do everything wrong, like old farts use to do, but I get over double yields compared those "young innovative forces"

Shhhhh Finman, please don't tell them your secrets. Let them get on with what they are doing. They are happy.
If they take notice of you, UK local honey prices will fall. My honey will sell for less.

 

[Madge]

...and was just wondering at what sort of temperatures do you swap your roof for this bonnet?

I don't think the idea is to swap the one for the other, but to put the cosy over the roof.

I don't think you need a cosy if your hive is of polystyrene, but do add extra insulation inside a super used as an eke.

I didn't use cosies when I had wooden hives either. I made sure they had a generous amount of insulation above their heads; the space was reduced with dummies; and that there was no draughts. On my hill the cosies will get ripped to pieces by the wind anyway.

I also try to keep insulation above their heads all year round, so the question of when to insulate doesn't arise.

 

[Thymallus]

Bees in wooden hives survived winters with uninsulated crown-boards propped open with matchsticks for ventilation during winter months for many years. Logic? being the poor dears may have got damp, apparently. Insulation is a real bonus to them.
Any insulation......
At at any time...
Some use poly hives, other construct weird and wonderful alternatives to keep them warm

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Evening, I'm all new to this bee keeping malarky and this will be my first wintering of a colony. I made a cellotex bonnet this morning and was just wondering at what sort of temperatures do you swap your roof for this bonnet?

I removed by wood roofs last winter and replaced with a "cosy" that had an aluminium top to shed water. The cosy rests on a clear poly-carbonate cover board.

I figure that the bees like a hive temperature in the mid thirties, which does not occur very often as an ambient temperature in the UK so they are always needing to add heat to the hive to make it comfortable for them and their brood. By leaving the cosy on all the time, I'm retaining heat in the hive when it's cold outside and keeping the hive cool when on the odd day when the temperature exceeds the mid-thirties.

The cosy is used in combination with an open mesh floor but I must admit to doing a fair bit of Varroa monitoring so the monitoring board is in place for probably 50% of the time. I'm not particularly worried about this apparent lack of ventilation because I use underfloor entrances, which remain fully open during the winter. This provides a 6mm gap for ventilation across the whole width of the hive.

Hope that helps.

CVB

 

[Erichalfbee]

I don't think the idea is to swap the one for the other, but to put the cosy over the roof.

Yes you do.
You take the roof off and the cosy fits on the crown board otherwise there is too big a gap all round.
Look at Derek's post.

 

[user 6228]

I don't think the idea is to swap the one for the other, but to put the cosy over the roof.

I don't think you need a cosy if your hive is of polystyrene, but do add extra insulation inside a super used as an eke.

I didn't use cosies when I had wooden hives either. I made sure they had a generous amount of insulation above their heads; the space was reduced with dummies; and that there was no draughts. On my hill the cosies will get ripped to pieces by the wind anyway.

I also try to keep insulation above their heads all year round, so the question of when to insulate doesn't arise.

if you make it with 30mm thick for a polyhive, 50mm thick for a wooden hive, glued well , pinned with BBQ bamboo skewers and tape sealed inside and out. as per the piccies above, it is quite robust and wont blow off before the hive itself blows over.

Do not block them in if the hive is at all crowded, if you must block them in ensure they have plenty of additional space and mesh ventilation
note: you will find this is the same action ITLD recommends for polyhives

 

[Madge]

Yes you do.

Oh - sorry!

if you make it with 30mm thick for a polyhive ....

I can't see the point of all this kerfuffle for a poly when it's so much easier, better, and safer to use a poly eke filled with extra insulation.

... it is quite robust and wont blow off before the hive itself blows over.

The wind up here will tear them apart, and if it doesn't do that it might just stress the colony with all the additional wind noise.

Do not block them in if the hive is at all crowded, if you must block them in ensure they have plenty of additional space and mesh ventilation
note: you will find this is the same action ITLD recommends for polyhives

I obviously don't crowd them into a space that's too small and I keep most colonies with varroa trays (with a few holes cut into some of the tight-fitting ones) in all winter. They are often on double brood or brood and a half, but some are just on one brood box. I haven't yet lost a colony over winter as a result of cold, damp, wind exposure, hunger, or lack of ventilation.

I can't imagine ITLD putting cosies on his hives.

 

[maddydog]

I've experimented with cosies the last couple of years. The latest incarnation has a plastic square gravel tray for a roof with 50mm kingspan ceiling and walls - all painted with black rubberised paint. Joints pinned with skewers and glued.
Fantastic for keeping in the heat and colonies used only tiny amount of stores. Too bulky and not robust enough though, bit like a Payne's poly ;-)
I'm a convert on insulation but personally I've swapped to poly brood boxes with standard roofs but with 50mm kingspan glued on the inside

 

[user 6228]

Oh - sorry!



I can't see the point of all this kerfuffle for a poly when it's so much easier, better, and safer to use a poly eke filled with extra insulation.



The wind up here will tear them apart, and if it doesn't do that it might just stress the colony with all the additional wind noise.



I obviously don't crowd them into a space that's too small and I keep most colonies with varroa trays (with a few holes cut into some of the tight-fitting ones) in all winter. They are often on double brood or brood and a half, but some are just on one brood box. I haven't yet lost a colony over winter as a result of cold, damp, wind exposure, hunger, or lack of ventilation.

I can't imagine ITLD putting cosies on his hives.

1) its all about the ratio of colony mass to hive thermal conductance. Whats difficult or unsafe about gluing & taping 5 pieces of PIR foam together?
2) PIR is not packaging polystyrene, its rigid ,it doesnt flap around, its sound deadening so less wind noise.
3) ITLD recommendation was on standard polys without bonnets as regards blocking them in.

Bees cool first by expanding the space the bees occupy and if that doesnt work fanning.
But fanning increases the heat released inside the hive. If fanning doesnt work they get more bees fanning.
if they cant expand sufficiently and if they cant get out , and they are not cooled, you can get a positive feed back where the bees cook themselves to death. Its been know to happen even in wooden hives, The risk is increased with increased insulation. ITLD transports bees in Poly hives so he's careful. They have had some disasters when the bees have been mistakely not ventilated when shut in for transport.

 

[Cussword]

I use underfloor entrances, which remain fully open during the winter. This provides a 6mm gap for ventilation across the whole width of the hive.
CVB

6mm, is that wide enough? (I'm sure it is as you are using it)

I only ask as I'm about to make a new floor using JBM's idea, he suggested 8/9mm.

Which would be the best option?

 

[user 6228]

6mm, is that wide enough? (I'm sure it is as you are using it)

I only ask as I'm about to make a new floor using JBM's idea, he suggested 8/9mm.

Which would be the best option?

ever wondered how bees defend themselves from mice in winter in the wild?

 

[Cussword]

Propolise the entrance to make it smaller?

How small can you go?

 

[Madge]

...Whats difficult or unsafe about gluing & taping 5 pieces of PIR foam together?
2) PIR is not packaging polystyrene its rigid ,it doesnt flap around, its sound deadening so less wind noise.

...They have had some disasters when the bees have been mistakely not ventilated when shut in for transport.

Difficult - extra work, trying to get them wind-safe, difficult to strap down securely, I'll have to redesign hive stands to accommodate them, and possibly some unknowns.

If it rattles about there will be wind noise.

On my hill they'll be blown to smithereens.

Of course, insulation helps - and if you're happy with this palaver, and your apiary isn't as exposed as mine, then that's fine.

We're talking about over-wintering colonies - not about transporting them.

 

[madasafish]

Bees in wooden hives survived winters with uninsulated crown-boards propped open with matchsticks for ventilation during winter months for many years. Logic? being the poor dears may have got damp, apparently. Insulation is a real bonus to them.
Any insulation......
At at any time...
Some use poly hives, other construct weird and wonderful alternatives to keep them warm

Err you forget: most of that went on before varroa. And Global Warming which was supposed to make snow and ice a "thing of the past" and give us barbecue hot summers and cool winters...

 

[user 6228]

Difficult - extra work, trying to get them wind-safe, difficult to strap down securely, I'll have to redesign hive stands to accommodate them, and possibly some unknowns.

If it rattles about there will be wind noise.

On my hill they'll be blown to smithereens.

Of course, insulation helps - and if you're happy with this palaver, and your apiary isn't as exposed as mine, then that's fine.

We're talking about over-wintering colonies - not about transporting them.

you obviously dont want them enough to test whether they will survive. The ones i make of 50mm Recticel, with only 5mm clearance when put on the hive are proof to everything bar sharp objects. So providing your wind only flings pebbles not knapped flints you should be fine. If you want to see an example come to the SBA Autumn convention next weekend.

 

[user 6228]

Propolise the entrance to make it smaller?

How small can you go?

... nobody knows but i have a guess ...

 

[Madge]

you obviously dont want them enough to test whether they will survive. .... So providing your wind only flings pebbles not knapped flints you should be fine. If you want to see an example come to the SBA Autumn convention next weekend.

Yes, I don't think I would have wanted cosies to cover my poly hives, even if they were in a more sheltered spot.

We've been covered in earth during ploughing time, but the wind has never peppered me with pebbles! It just forces it's way into everything and tears it apart.

Best wishes for your talk at the SBA convention, Derek. I wish I could be there.
Kitta

 

[charlievictorbravo]

6mm, is that wide enough? (I'm sure it is as you are using it)

I only ask as I'm about to make a new floor using JBM's idea, he suggested 8/9mm.

Which would be the best option?

Apologies - I've just checked the construction details and the drawings show 8mm - when I made the earlier post I could not check the gap because all of my Under Floor Entrances were in use and I thought I could remember the vertical gap being 6mm but tempus fugit and my memory let me down. Sorry for the confusion.

CVB

 

[Cussword]

Thanks for that CVB, that helps.

 

[SiOakleaf]

if you make it with 30mm thick for a polyhive, 50mm thick for a wooden hive, glued well , pinned with BBQ bamboo skewers and tape sealed inside and out. as per the piccies above, it is quite robust and wont blow off before the hive itself blows over.

Do not block them in if the hive is at all crowded, if you must block them in ensure they have plenty of additional space and mesh ventilation
note: you will find this is the same action ITLD recommends for polyhives

Thank you, I have a cedar hive and I have made it from 25mm celotex as well as having 25mm on the crown board. I live on top of a hill in North Wales which gets very windy so hopefully this should help them. Thank you for all your replies. There were a few fanning at the entrance today, maybe I should open the top entrance to allow circulation? I have a mesh floor and my entrance is reduced to two bees on the width.