Cedar or Pine?

[BernardBlack]

Have narrowed it down to a National hive but there's two choices: cedar or pine?

Anyone got any advise as to which is better, or are both fine?

 

[alldigging]

pine needs painting and still might not last anywhere near as long as cedar.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

even British cedar is far less maintenance than pine, although pine will last you yearfs if you look after it really well

 

[jignog]

Have you considered poly? Can last a very long time if covered with masonry paint.

 

[pargyle]

Have narrowed it down to a National hive but there's two choices: cedar or pine?

Anyone got any advise as to which is better, or are both fine?

Actually ... there's three ... have you considered polystyrene ? So many advantages with poly hives ... granted they may not look as pretty in their natural state but you can paint them to blend in. Bees love 'em ... lighter to lift and lighter on the pocket than cedar and they last just as well as most timber boxes and with less maintenance than pine.

I wouldn't swap my Paynes Polys for timber ....

 

[BernardBlack]

Thought about Poly. Seems a bit cheaper too.

Is a National and a National hybrid the same thing?

 

[BeeJayBee]

No, National and National Hybrid aren't the same thing.

Poly hives are warmer and cheaper than cedar, but are best painted before use.

Same as pargyle, I wouldn't swap my poly hives for timber.

 

[BernardBlack]

No, National and National Hybrid aren't the same thing.

Poly hives are warmer and cheaper than cedar, but are best painted before use.

Same as pargyle, I wouldn't swap my poly hives for timber.

What is the difference between them?

Might reconsider re: the national poly. Can you recommend retailer online for a Poly?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Thought about Poly. Seems a bit cheaper too.

Is a National and a National hybrid the same thing?

No it's not - it's a total abortion dreamt up to try and tie the beekeeper in to one single supplier. Barge pole comes to mind

 

[wessexmario]

Is a National and a National hybrid the same thing?

Noooo!
"national hybrid" is a single-manufacturer mix-up between langstroth and national sizes,
no doubt due to them trying to make boxes and frames for the UK market when their production equipment and gigs are sized for the USA market.
It's not really compatible with either langstroth or national kit, so unless you want to stay with that single supplier, I'd avoid.

Similar applies to poly - The different poly brands are mostly not compatible with each other or with the wooden equivalents.

You might want to get a couple of different types of hives to experiment with to see which suits you best,
but keep in mind that in the long term it's best to have everything of one type,
as you always need extra kit and having different types of boxes means you'll need spares for each type.

 

[pargyle]

What is the difference between them?

Might reconsider re: the national poly. Can you recommend retailer online for a Poly?

Mine are all Paynes boxes .. I like them and they are a nice firm to deal with .. but .. there are several different makes and there are as many opinions on here about the various pros and cons as there are opinions on swarm prevention !

There is a thread somewhere ... which poly ? ... I think .. my search hasn't found it but I'll have another look.

There are two major differences ... Poly boxes that have the same external dimensions as a National (but obviously less space inside) and Poly boxes that have the same internal space as Nationals but are clearly bigger than a National on the outside.

If you have poly and stick to them then it really doesn't matter that much but if you start mixing timber and poly then it can become a tad interesting ... they are all compatible in one way or another you just need to be a bit creative with roofs and crownboards. Mixing different brands of Poly doesn't seem to work very well ... so if you go down the poly route go and have a look at all the ones you think are likely and then decide which you are going to stick with. Although they are all based on National Frames (mostly - there are some Langstroth polys around) they are somewhat different .. some come as flat pack and some are single castings ...

I run 14 x 12 and I like the bigger brood boxes as the bees can overwinter in a single box with all the stores they need in the brood box and there is plenty of room for even quite a big colony without having to have brood and a half or double brood ... but, they are a bit heavier than a standard national when they are full ... Again, there will always be debate about the size of the box you use ... just a matter of personal preference.

The best time to buy hives is in the sale ... unfortunately we are now in mid season and sales are a long way off ...

Sorry ... this is not very helpful .. beekeepers spend hours mulling over the pros and cons of equipment so best get used to it ... I don't think there are any really bad suppliers or designs of poly hives so I don't think you would be disappointed with any of them.

 

[BernardBlack]

Thanks for that guys.

I see one made with white/red Deal. Deal or No Deal? Any thoughts?

 

[theeggman]

With Pargyle. I started with cedar 14x12 and have since been buying P's poly.
As said above mixing the 2 can be interesting but the only rock solid P.I.A. is when you have timber roof at the apiary and it won't gone on the b'. poly super, another trip back to the bee shed.

I find that the bees in the poly's are flying earlier than the timber next door and over-winter better.

 

[pargyle]

Thanks for that guys.

I see one made with white/red Deal. Deal or No Deal? Any thoughts?

Deal is just pine ... generic term in the UK for softwood ... You get what you pay for .. if you are going down the timber hive route save up and buy as much as you can in Cedar when the sales come along ... will be a lot cheaper than even the budget hives at standard cost ... you won't have to paint cedar if you don't mind the silver grey weathered finish.

There's nothing wrong with pine but they do have to be treated or painted every year or they will rot away ... and panting them with bees in them can be a bit interesting - so you need spare boxes ... you will need spare boxes anyway so that doesn't make a lot of difference.

The main difference between timber and poly is the superior insulation you get with polystyrene ... even good cedar is no match fo 50mm HD Polystyrene ... and once painted with a decent paint finish poly will last years without a fresh coat of paint ... paint on timber does not seem to last as well.

 

[Zante]

There is a thread somewhere ... which poly ? ... I think .. my search hasn't found it but I'll have another look.

Here it is
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=37152

Personally I have decided I will get Maisemore's poly hives for myself. Apparently they are the ones with the thicker walls (I researched the minimum wall thickness for the boxes) and aesthetically I like them better than Paynes' or Swienty.

My decision is based on no practical reason though other that the above. I have not seen any of the poly hives, and my mentor uses timber WBCs.

 

[pargyle]

Here it is
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=37152

Personally I have decided I will get Maisemore's poly hives for myself. Apparently they are the ones with the thicker walls (I researched the minimum wall thickness for the boxes) and aesthetically I like them better than Paynes' or Swienty.

My decision is based on no practical reason though other that the above. I have not seen any of the poly hives, and my mentor uses timber WBCs.

Thanks ... knew it was there somewhere ... just a morass of threads when you search for poly hives !!!

And Maisemores have a one day sale on 25th June !!

http://www.bees-online.co.uk/DAYEVENT2016-1.jpg

 

[Zante]

Thanks ... knew it was there somewhere ... just a morass of threads when you search for poly hives !!!

And Maisemores have a one day sale on 25th June !!

http://www.bees-online.co.uk/DAYEVENT2016-1.jpg

Yeah, I'd noticed it, but you need to go there to pick up the stuff. Unfortunately I can't

No real problem though, I won't have any bees until next year anyway and another sale is likely to come along before then.

 

[user 6228]

The thermal performance comparision between hives can be found here
http://www.eigentek.com/11-08-2015-IJBM_flat_mailable .pdf
the manuscript to
Mitchell, D. (2016). Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures of Apis mellifera: implications for survival, clustering, humidity regulation and Varroa destructor. International Journal of Biometeorology, 60(5), 629–638. http://doi.org/10.1007/s00484-015-1057-z

 

[Zante]

The thermal performance comparision between hives can be found here
http://www.eigentek.com/11-08-2015-IJBM_flat_mailable .pdf
the manuscript to
Mitchell, D. (2016). Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures of Apis mellifera: implications for survival, clustering, humidity regulation and Varroa destructor. International Journal of Biometeorology, 60(5), 629–638. http://doi.org/10.1007/s00484-015-1057-z

Yep, that's what sold me on the poly hives.

 

[wezbeez]

Hi Guys,
I'm really new to beekeeping, only started this year and have somehow got three hives already. More luck than planning.
I bought one national hive, 14x12 complete more to be able to use it as a template to make my own. I converted it to top bee space. I have been making brood, supers, landing boards and roofs from marine ply. BS 1088 which I thought would last at least a few years without treatment, but after reading through this thread I'm not now so sure of myself.
Advice please on treat or not and what to treat with.
Many thanks all.