can I start feeding fondant now

[Rosie gill]

Hi all
very newby, I have a good sized brand new colony, been feeding them syrup but they stopped taking it down about mid September. I've checked them frequently, they are happy and flying in good weather days and bringing pollen etc back but there are very little stores (about 2 and half brood size frames). question is, can I feed them fondant from now, a fellow beekeeper has said I need to keep feeding them but others have said they wont be able to extract the water from syrup and may cause dysentery. what should I do? I keep getting conflicting advice: hairpull:

 

[drstitson]

still time to feed 2:1 but will likely need a decent fondant shot too.

"I have a good sized brand new colony"

i know it's a bit late but generally not advisable to take possession of colonies late in season - you have all the risks re overwintering w/o a season of enjoyment.

 

[Amari]

I assume the colony is in one brood box and there is no super. It is strange that they have stopped taking down syrup. Are all the frames 'drawn comb' or do some only have foundation wax - bees are unlikely to draw foundation any time after August. Your stores do not sound sufficient to sustain the colony over winter - standard lore is that a colony needs 20kg or 40 lbs of stores. Tricky position! Assuming that you do not have empty drawn comb in the hive, could the person who provided you with the colony, or other local beeks, loan you a super with drawn comb so that you can feed with 2:1 (2lbs sugar, 1 pint water) immediately ( standard advice is to stop feeding after mid October)? I use fondant in early spring if stores become light but it is not as accessible as stores in the comb and bees may not be able to mobilise it in freezing weather because they will be in a tight cluster

 

[oliver90owner]

It would seem that your colony is somewhat smaller than we might all consider as 'good sized'. Is it in a nuc hive or a full brood box?

RAB

 

[itma]

Welcome to the forum.

You will get conflicting advice - not all of it wrong, as different opinions may result from different preconceptions about things not mentioned or different intended results.
And some beekeepers really do enjoy being contrary!



If you have only 2 and a half frames-worth total of stores, then they are DESPERATELY short. That would be about 12.5 pounds against the expected minimum of 35 pounds (some want 40 pounds, others 20kg - about 44 pounds). They are short by more than a whole 12.5kg box of Bako fondant.

If they have got drawn comb, but it is empty, then I'd suggest feeding one of the special invert syrups for bees (the best-known is Ambrosia). They should fill their comb quite quickly, even now, with that. It has less water and requires much less processing by the bees.
Once they stop taking that, then they will need fondant, and likely lots of it.

HOWEVER, if they are living in a box still half-full of undrawn foundation, then I think the best thing would be to shift them into a poly nuc with extra insulation. And feed Ambrosia, and be ready to feed lots of fondant ...

 

[peteinwilts]

standard advice is to stop feeding after mid October)?

'Standard advice'?. I originally read not to medicate and feed at the same time. I do not regardless... the reasoning makes sense. However, if medication wad started in late august/early september, the meds would not finish until early-mid october.

I started feeding last Saturday. I gave many a second helping of six litres yesterday/today. Will do the same on sunday and keep going twice a week until they stop.
If they do not cap it, no problem. It is thymolated so will not ferment.

 

[Rosie gill]

Thanks for all your posts. It is a brood box full of drawn frames, no super, I think I'll keep trying with the strong syrup then. but if they don't take it will the fondant harm them?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

if they don't take it will the fondant harm them?

No it's only the same stuff as in the syrup only less water. Some beekeepers don't use syrup at all but feed fondant from the onset. I didn't get enough syrup into a few of my colonies last year and they had fondant on from November and one just took it straight down as stores.

 

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Rosie Gill
I think ITMA has covered it really
You wouldn't happen to be doing a thymol treatment at the same time by any chance
Some bees can stop taking syrup when they are being treated

If you are close to a Thornes shop or other supplier the inverted syrup is the best bet because although it might make a cold damp hive if the bees can't get it concentrated, at least it wont go moldy in the comb.
Apifonda is a good feed to have over the bees in the winter so you want some of that as well.

Now don't shoot the messenger here but when bees that need food and have space to store it just ignore the opportunity of a free feed, there is often something else going on and I would not be too surprised if they don't make it through the winter.
If this was my only hive I would get an order in for a Nuc to replace them in Spring
Good luck with them though

 

[itma]

Thanks for all your posts. It is a brood box full of drawn frames, no super, I think I'll keep trying with the strong syrup then. but if they don't take it will the fondant harm them?

"Strong syrup" (2:1 pounds to pints) is 38% water.
Stored honey has to be got down to about 20% water to limit mould and fermentation.
Ambrosia is about 27% water. Less than half the work for the bees of "strong syrup".

They won't do nearly such a good job of storing fondant. Really they need to cluster around their stores. Fondant requires moisture for digestibility. Trips outside for water in midwinter are suicidal. Fondant is the best you can do later on. But you can do better now.

For your fondant feeding, you'd be better to put it on the topbars, rather than above a hole in the crownboard. Think of access by the cluster.
To put any quantity on the topbars, you'll need to make or get a small eke (such as an Apiguard eke) to give additional headspace for fondant on the topbars.
But that's for later.
For now, as you say that they have drawn comb, I'd be throwing Ambrosia (or one of the equivalents) at them. You'll be needing maybe 15kg of it ...


Also insulation. For winter, but also for now. The temperature of the syrup quite critically affects how rapidly they will take it. So insulation (around and) over the feeder can be of great benefit.
Try Wickes for £6 sheets 1200x450x50mm which fit into a car much more easily than the big sheets.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Apifonda is a good feed to have over the bees in the winter so you want some of that as well.

Not really - exactly the same stuff as baker's fondant only at least twice the price.

 

[itma]

Dunno that brand, but we did establish that Ambrosia fondant is just fondant, and that dissolving it did NOT give you anything remotely like Ambrosia syrup.

 

[itma]

Not really - exactly the same stuff as baker's fondant only at least twice the price.

JBM - it might help Rosie if you were to explain how quickly your lot lap up their invert syrup ...
Was it half a ton you got for your Association?

 

[The Drone Ranger]

Not really - exactly the same stuff as baker's fondant only at least twice the price.

Apart from being inverted
If you only have one hive and are new to beekeeping you can get a bit of helpful advice if you nip to the Beekeeping shop
Once you have a few hives it gets too expensive as you say

 

[itma]

...
i know it's a bit late but generally not advisable to take possession of colonies late in season - you have all the risks re overwintering w/o a season of enjoyment.

I know its something else to buy, but a no-hole polycarbonate (see-through) coverboard is a massive help in this situation.
You can see what the bees are up to, how the fondant is lasting, etc, without fully opening the hive.
Well worthwhile anyway, but especially in this situation.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

JBM - it might help Rosie if you were to explain how quickly your lot lap up their invert syrup ...
Was it half a ton you got for your Association?

Invert syrup and Apifonda are two different substances Belgosuc or Ambrosia are part invert syrup which has less water still than 2:1 by buying a ton of it i could sell it on to my members at half the price that the big players charge.
Apifonda, fondabee, ambrosia fondant or the one that bako sell or whatever is just fondant - no invert whatsoever so exactly the same as baker's fondant only because they put a picture of a ickle bee on the packet the gullible are willing to pay through the nose for it.
Because of its lower water content invert syrup can be fed a lot later to the bees with no detrimental effect on their health and they do seem to take it down quicker than plain sugar syrup, but it would be hard to put it through its paces in a controlled experiment as no two colonies of bees are the same.

 

[itma]

Apart from being inverted
...

But is it?

Apifonda
Micro-fine paste feed
Apifonda is a ready-made feed in paste form that is composed mainly of sucrose. It contains micro-fine crystals which are in average smaller than 1/100 millimeters.

http://www.bienenfutter.eu/en/Produkte/Apifonda/

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Apart from being inverted

no it isn't

 

[itma]

Just to try and sum up and cut through the confusion for Rosie.

Invert bee syrups are better for late feeding than 2:1 (even if a prejudiced Nordic 'gentleman' intervenes)

But fancy Bee-Fondants are just fondant.

Goodnight one and all.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

And it's goodnight from him