Broodless Period

[Beefriendly]

If they become honeybound, this isn't really a natural brood break as we are discussing it here.

Sorry B+ but I can't find (your post excepted) anything on this thread that qualifies it to only a natural brood break.
The discussion was brood break.
The relevance of my post is that I know many beekeepers who take their bees to the heather and never inspect the brood box, get them home and find no brood and note the queen has gone off the lay for reasons they don't understand. I'm providing a probable reason for this based on my own observations.
And their is nothing unnatural about it

As an aside I've yet to have a hive swarm under these conditions and I've been going to the moors for many years.

 

[Hivemaker.]

All queens have to have a brood break at the same time too, or you will simply reinfest colonies from others that have brood breaks at different times.

They do back fill the brood box with nectar, as the queens are not laying, usually no sealed brood at all come de-supering time, so an ideal time to treat, but I'm not sure if every colony the area, or even the entire south west has this brood break.

 

[B+.]

Sorry B+ but I can't find (your post excepted) anything on this thread that qualifies it to only a natural brood break.
The discussion was brood break.

Quite right. The OP didn't explicitly state that it had to be a "natural" brood break. I was distracted by a comment about HM's bees that suggested this might be a useful breeding trait.
The question was about the most appropriate time for OA sublimation which requires the absence of brood to be effective.
As stated above, I think its a double edged sword: unless you have a long enough brood break to get all of the mites out of the cell, you're going to have to treat over an extended period and run the risk of reinfestation anyway. This can run into late nectar flows whe you don't want to treat while supers are on.
Either treat early (Aug/Sept has been suggested) and forsake late harvests (but minimise the risk of viral infestion to overwintering bees) or treat at the end of the season when supers are removed and the queen is laying less. As we saw last winter, some colonies have some brood even in the depths of our, so called, "winter".
It seems to me that neither of these options is ideal.

 

[B+.]

They do back fill the brood box with nectar, as the queens are not laying, usually no sealed brood at all come de-supering time, so an ideal time to treat, but I'm not sure if every colony the area, or even the entire south west has this brood break.

Since I have been chastised for drifting off topic, I will not comment further about this. Save to say that, if we could be certain that all colonies were broodless and could be treated at the same time, it might be a very useful trait.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Save to say that, if we could be certain that all colonies were broodless and could be treated at the same time, it might be a very useful trait.

Just one of those things that will never be known.

 

[Poly Hive]

Broodless period

There was research done at Craibstone by Dr Jaffrees in the late 50's into wintering and as part of that colonies were inspected for brood right through the winter on if I remember rightly a 2 week basis.

The determination was that there was pretty consistently a broodless period from roughly now through to mid December and after that brooding was found.

Bear in mind the colonies would mostly have been in timber nationals.

PH

 

[Beefriendly]

The question was about the most appropriate time for OA sublimation which requires the absence of brood to be effective.

Please don't take as chastisement B+, but what about the 3-4 treatments 4-5 days apart, which can be done in the presence of brood? I find it quite effective. It might help the original poster to not worry too much whether brood is present or not as long as he is prepared to treat more than once.

 

[B+.]

It might help the original poster to not worry too much whether brood is present or not as long as he is prepared to treat more than once.

I think I am right in saying you can't have supers on when doing this (memory may be faulty on this so I stand to be corrected).
Either way, 15-20 days broodless ...lets say 3 weeks when every colony in the area is to be treated simoultaneously? Even ignoring feral colonies, I think its unlikely that such an exercise would be done properly.
Its a great idea though. I just think other options offer more hope for a lasting solution.

 

[GaryB]

Thanks everyone for your replies. Some interesting variation as to when your hives are broodless, i.e JBM notices that his colonies tend to take a break in Aug/Sept, and B+'s observation that they take a break after being taken to the heather. Makes sense that there would be a break if they are piling in as much food as they can ready for wintering. Sorry I wasn't more specific about the time of year, but it was the winter period that I was interested in. If the Q starts laying again late December, it just seems odd, as usually our worst weather and temps tend to be in Jan and Feb, not the best time to raise brood I would have thought. Maybe the lengthening days does have something to do with it.

 

[Erichalfbee]

If the Q starts laying again late December, it just seems odd, as usually our worst weather and temps tend to be in Jan and Feb, not the best time to raise brood I would have thought.

Not really if you think about it.
The bees need some sort of workforce when the first pollen/nectar starts. In many places this can be Early March....late March where I live.

 

[GaryB]

Not really if you think about it.
The bees need some sort of workforce when the first pollen/nectar starts. In many places this can be Early March....late March where I live.

Yes I suppose so, just seems a shame for them having to keep themselves as well as the brood warm....

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Yes I suppose so, just seems a shame for them having to keep themselves as well as the brood warm....

Is there any data on the heat contribution of the metabolic process of developing brood? One way of heating a building up is to fill it with bodies (living ones).

 

[Goran]

Thanks everyone for your replies. Some interesting variation as to when your hives are broodless, i.e JBM notices that his colonies tend to take a break in Aug/Sept, and B+'s observation that they take a break after being taken to the heather. Makes sense that there would be a break if they are piling in as much food as they can ready for wintering. Sorry I wasn't more specific about the time of year, but it was the winter period that I was interested in. If the Q starts laying again late December, it just seems odd, as usually our worst weather and temps tend to be in Jan and Feb, not the best time to raise brood I would have thought. Maybe the lengthening days does have something to do with it.

At our place brood start usually around half of January which is considered as colder part of winter.. So, it isn't temperature that determine start of brooding. Some even at beginning of February start brooding.

 

[masterBK]

Sorry B+ but I can't find (your post excepted) anything on this thread that qualifies it to only a natural brood break.
The discussion was brood break.
The relevance of my post is that I know many beekeepers who take their bees to the heather and never inspect the brood box, get them home and find no brood and note the queen has gone off the lay for reasons they don't understand. I'm providing a probable reason for this based on my own observations.
And their is nothing unnatural about it

As an aside I've yet to have a hive swarm under these conditions and I've been going to the moors for many years.

If you take your bees to the moors for heather with a young queen (introduced during July) then you don't tend to get a brood break.

Have once in 40+ years had bees swarm on the heather (I found the swarm in amongst the ling when I stepped in it!)

 

[Beefriendly]

If you take your bees to the moors for heather with a young queen (introduced during July) then you don't tend to get a brood break.

There's a thought. I'll make a note of any recently re-queened hives next season and see if they are different to the others.
Mine are usually queens of the previous years, so about 1 1/2 years old, but large colonies. Usually double brood hives knocked into a single box (plus empty supers to make up the space).
It's not something I'm worried about, just been seeing it happen for the last few years.
Another possibility is we appear to have had three successive exceptional heather flows in the areas I take mine. My suspicion is they are bringing it in so fast it is just getting dumped in the nearest cells during flight time and moved later. Whistle I've not made careful notes I remember inspections late afternoon show brood cells full of fresh nectar, but relatively dry in early morning/bad weather inspections, although still nectar in most cells. Must pay closer attention next season.

 

[Poly Hive]

If you read B. Mobus on wintering his thoughts were that water vapour management in the cluster was one of the winter drivers for brooding.

PH