Brood size

[Martin G]

I’m sure this has been calculated:

Minimum size of hive (brood) so that the queen can’t run out of space to lay without going over the top and being to big.

The idea seemed easy in my head but as I though about the timescales of bee development and the rate of lay I thought it best to ask!

Martin

 

[Finman]

.
What?

What do you do with minimum?

A queen lays a minimum hive couple of days and then flies away.

 

[Martin G]

Brood space

What I was thinking: brood and a half, double brood etc?

As the bees emerge and the queen reuses the cell there must be an optimum size so that there is enough space for her to lay in without there being frames and frames of empty space. Also there would need to be sufficient space for stores to feed the newly laid brood and take care of the needs of the worker population.

Martin

 

[aberreef]

I’m sure this has been calculated:

Minimum size of hive (brood) so that the queen can’t run out of space to lay without going over the top and being to big.

The idea seemed easy in my head but as I though about the timescales of bee development and the rate of lay I thought it best to ask!

Martin

I can see what you're asking but am crap at maths sorry

With calculations like this in terms of bees you also have to keep in mind room for food stores, nectar and pollen Hence the need for a large brood area

 

[Tom Bick]

It will all depend on the queen and hive selection. So no real answer I guess.

 

[Walrus]

The way to do it is to ensure the queen has space to lay, particularly Apr - July, and add more space if needed. Most people seem to think that a National brood box is too small for some of the more prolific queens, but it does depend on how many eggs per day she lays and how that changes over time (lower temperatures cause her to slow down or stop). Some bees are more prolific than others. Then there is the age of the queen, whether they are preparing to swarm etc etc...lots of variables.

The maths doesn't help that much, but for what it's worth most studies show that queens lay 1500 - 2000 eggs per day (max), and with a worker taking 21 days to get from egg to emerged bee, theoretically the queen needs somewhere between 31,500 & 42,000 cells to lay in, after which time she can go around again.

You don't just need space for the brood of course. At night they all have to pack into the hive. A worker lives 42 days, so at 1500 being born per day the population theoretically levels off at 63,000 bees. And stores take up quite a bit of space in brood frames too.

 

[Finman]

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I do not use excluder and I have 3 brood for laying.

poor layer makes 8 frames brood and good layers 20 frames.

 

[Finman]

As the bees emerge and the queen reuses the cell there must be an optimum size

There is no optimum size.

If you have children, you do not have optimum lenght for them. They are what they are. You should think that before you shoose your wife.

 

[oliver90owner]

31,500 & 42,000 cells to lay in, after which time she can go around again.

That immediately falls down for the 1500 and 2000 layrates suggested, unless the queen is hunting around for cells as they become vacant, shoving in a few bees to clear out the cell and then drop in an egg as soon as possible.

The cycle for re-using cells is likely rather longer than that - reported as 24 days - and that may, of course depend on the number of drone brood which also come into play at these peak laying periods.

The OP can look up the number of cells in their particular hive format and multiply the anticipated maximum average lay-rate by say 24 or 25 (using a cycle of 25 days is easy as one can divide by 4 for the digits).

Or start with a practical number of brooding cells by subtracting honey arch, pollen frame space, corners of frames at the extremities of the nest and make a reduction for drone comb (it's not a large correction) and find the maximum lay-rate for your particular situation.

11 or 12 frames in the hive will make a considerable difference of course, as will as the material of the hive and floor type (along with the prevailing weather). So one should never rely on the absolute minimum - it will only get you into trouble with swarming, and there would certainly be fewer bees than could have been (even without swarming), had space not been constricted.

Remember, it is bees that make honey - more bees equates to more honey, in the right conditions. Swarming costs how much? Quite a lot - and is a useful exercise to calculate those losses, if the minimum happens to be too little......

 

[masterBK]

Beekeepers have a choice: select a hive to match the bees you have or select the bees to match the hives you have. More bees can indeed mean more honey but in this year of poor weather can also mean more mouths to feed. It is foragers you want and ideally hard working foragers that live a long time. A smaller colony with high proportion of long lived foragers can collect more honey than a large colony with a smaller proportion of foragers (smaller because they have a shorter lifespan )

 

[oliver90owner]

More bees can indeed mean more honey but in this year of poor weather can also mean more mouths to feed.

As I said 'in the right conditions'.

Wandering off topic now but my post was simply trying to demonsrtrate the futility of congested hives, that is all. I am sure a slightly larger colony of your example would collect even more surplus nectar, but I was generalising for the same type of bee in the same right conditions.

One problem is that all the one and two hive beeks are unable to select a lot until they are experienced; the new beek buys in a colony, most often not having a clue as to the true characteristics of the colony - just being 'docile' is enough. There are suppliers of good docile and productive bees, and a lot supplying less productive ones (in terms of honey).

 

[Martin G]

Brood Size

31,500 & 42,000 cells to lay in, after which time she can go around again.

That immediately falls down for the 1500 and 2000 layrates suggested, unless the queen is hunting around for cells as they become vacant, shoving in a few bees to clear out the cell and then drop in an egg as soon as possible.

The cycle for re-using cells is likely rather longer than that - reported as 24 days - and that may, of course depend on the number of drone brood which also come into play at these peak laying periods.

The OP can look up the number of cells in their particular hive format and multiply the anticipated maximum average lay-rate by say 24 or 25 (using a cycle of 25 days is easy as one can divide by 4 for the digits).

Or start with a practical number of brooding cells by subtracting honey arch, pollen frame space, corners of frames at the extremities of the nest and make a reduction for drone comb (it's not a large correction) and find the maximum lay-rate for your particular situation.

11 or 12 frames in the hive will make a considerable difference of course, as will as the material of the hive and floor type (along with the prevailing weather). So one should never rely on the absolute minimum - it will only get you into trouble with swarming, and there would certainly be fewer bees than could have been (even without swarming), had space not been constricted.

Remember, it is bees that make honey - more bees equates to more honey, in the right conditions. Swarming costs how much? Quite a lot - and is a useful exercise to calculate those losses, if the minimum happens to be too little......

Just what I was after, a good idea of the averages. I know there are always differences between queens etc but I just thought a general 'overview' of the possibilities would be useful.

The question wasn’t so I could build a colony to that size, that wouldn’t be sensible (obviously) but if we don’t know the possibilities how can be plan for them.

Thanks all

Martin

 

[Finman]

. A smaller colony with high proportion of long lived foragers can collect more honey than a large colony with a smaller proportion of foragers (smaller because they have a shorter lifespan )

that is a story. If bees make harder work, why they are long living

what i had hives theyare very same. They born at same time and they die at same time.
When blooming stops, bees search flowers longer and longer and the hive size colapses very fast before wintering..

.

The yield depends on pastures. The more bees, the more foragers.

Another nonsense is that angry hives are better foragers.

 

[masterBK]

Not a story or myth. While there is evidence that the harder a bee works the shorter its life there are also differences in longevity that are genetically determined.
If you mark a few hundred workers in each of several colonies of bees and see how many are left after 4 weeks , 5 weeks etc you will find that there are differences in worker longevity between colonies. It is well known that workers of some strains of A.m.m live longer than workers of most strains of A.m.l. Perhaps in Finland there isn't so much genetic variation in the colonies as there is in GB (where thousands of queens from many strains have been imported here over the last hundred years)