Brood in new super?

[Genesis-Honey]

Hi all
Did an inspection yesterday on my 2 colonies and in one that had a new super with foundation, I found around a dozen or so drone brood capped cells on 3 frames. Not masses of them, but the super was put on with just foundation, and a QE on the top half brood box. I'm a bit confused as to how they got there, no eggs or larva at all, just a few drone cells.
I took them all down and removed all signs of larvae and feed, scraped off back to foundation at those spots. They have drawn the whole box and started capping honey, so hope I'm OK to extract now I've removed the cells.

Have I done the right thing please and any ideas on how the cells could have got there?

Thanks, Darrin

 

[pargyle]

You just have a rogue laying worker - if you are running brood and a half and put a new super on there it may just be that there was a lack of queen pheremones in the new super and (all worker bees are capable of laying) and one got a bit enthusiastic. I assume there is a normal brood pattern with worker brood in the brood box ? If there is then I would not have worried too much about it and let the brood in the super emerge normally - absolutely no need to knock down the cells and scrape back to the foundation.

I suspect you are thinking that brood in the supers somehow contaminates them ? Unless you are doing cut comb it's not an issue. I run without queen excluders and often get some brood laid up in the first super as the colony expands at this time of the year - the brood emerges and as the season progresses they fill the vacated cells with honey.

Just another myth that has come about from nonsense passed down from beekeepers who have been misinformed. Bees are the cleanest organism on the planet - before they re-use any cells they are fastidiously cleaned.

 

[Genesis-Honey]

You just have a rogue laying worker - if you are running brood and a half and put a new super on there it may just be that there was a lack of queen pheremones in the new super and (all worker bees are capable of laying) and one got a bit enthusiastic. I assume there is a normal brood pattern with worker brood in the brood box ? If there is then I would not have worried too much about it and let the brood in the super emerge normally - absolutely no need to knock down the cells and scrape back to the foundation.

I suspect you are thinking that brood in the supers somehow contaminates them ? Unless you are doing cut comb it's not an issue. I run without queen excluders and often get some brood laid up in the first super as the colony expands at this time of the year - the brood emerges and as the season progresses they fill the vacated cells with honey.

Just another myth that has come about from nonsense passed down from beekeepers who have been misinformed. Bees are the cleanest organism on the planet - before they re-use any cells they are fastidiously cleaned.

Thank you very much, I was hoping g that was the answer as there were no eggs. The brood in the 2 boxes is fairly good, quite a lot of drone brood, but eggs are being laid in between one emerged by the looks of it.

Hoping to do my first split as I think they're strong enough..

 

[pargyle]

I'd start and work your hives to double brood. Brood and a half is an abortion in more ways than one - it's only creating a box the size of 14 x 12 and with that many bees on the outside of the hive they are either getting in the mood to swarm or they don't have enough space in the boxes you have provided - with the bigger colonies modern bee strains are creating national boxes on their own are rarely big enough - double brood will be a better option (indeed, some people are seeing triple brood as the norm with some prolific queens).

I assume you had a thorough look for queen cells ?

 

[Genesis-Honey]

I'd start and work your hives to double brood. Brood and a half is an abortion in more ways than one - it's only creating a box the size of 14 x 12 and with that many bees on the outside of the hive they are either getting in the mood to swarm or they don't have enough space in the boxes you have provided - with the bigger colonies modern bee strains are creating national boxes on their own are rarely big enough - double brood will be a better option (indeed, some people are seeing triple brood as the norm with some prolific queens).

I assume you had a thorough look for queen cells ?

Yeah no Queen cells, this was taken after the inspection, think they were a bit miffed as it took a good 45 mins to go through, still plenty of room in the brood boxes. I inherited this setup, been a nightmare from the start. As I got the colony and hive in September or so, I didn't inspect until a few weeks ago when warm enough, they sintered just fine, quite strong, but there were 2 frames missing in the deep brood and you can imagine the mess that created. Knocked back all the burr comb and inserted 2 frames of foundation, they're all drawn and laid up.
I want to do a split and was wondering If I should use the brood frames from the half super in a poly nuc, have 2 capped frames of stores I took off it last week I could use too, 2 frames of bias and 2 drawn Comb. Question is as I only have one Apiary, do I buy a queen and pop the closed cage in with it at the same time, wait 7 days, knock down any QC's and pop the tab?
Pic of new frame laid up, seems to be a lot of drone, but there are also eggs in this frame, does it look too "droney"...?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

That's one heck of a lot of drone brood there, what are the other frames like? I would suspect that the queen is slowly running out of juice you say they were starting to cap the stores in the super, but more importantly, how much room have they got to store nectar? a handy rule of thumb is, if the super is full of bees (not honey) they need more space

do I buy a queen and pop the closed cage in with it at the same time, wait 7 days, knock down any QC's and pop the tab?

you don't want to wait more than 24 hours before removing the tab, unless the bees are being particularly vicious towards the queen.

 

[pargyle]

It's not unusual to have about 20% of the brood as drone brood at this time of the year - my colonies always have lots of drone brood. The question that is more relevant is whether there is 80% of worker brood in the hive - if there is, nothing to be concerned about. If not, you may have a failing queen.

In terms of splits - there are so many options - you can just do a walk away split and let them raise their own queen, you can buy in a queen and then split off a nuc to get her a colony to establish, you can wait until they make swarm preps and do an artificial swarm.

Does not really matter which frames you use to split them - you could use two supers as a temporary hive using the super you have as a half brood. You could put the super frames in the middle of the two super split, dummy it down to just the middle five 'frames' and then give them national frames either side as they need them. Or you could invest in a poly nuc (I use Paynes nucs but I cut out the feeder which give me an 8 frame nucleus which is really useful). Or you could just get another full hive and dummy it down. If you put super frames in a full hive they will add free comb to the bottom of them (again, not a problem - just be a bit careful handling the frames when the comb is fresh). I have two hives that have a couple of national frames in a 14 x 12 box that are drawn down to 14 x 12 size - I keep trying to move them out and the bees keep using them !!

You have to be a bit creative in beekeeping - don't get hung up on what you use - if you don't have the right kit - improvise - the bees will always make up for any deficiencies. I've seen people lose swarms 'because I did not have enough kit to split' .. a simple box made out of KIngspan/Celotex takes minutes to make and will get you out of a hole .. top bars on their own will provide something for them to draw comb on (interspersed with frames of foundation or drawn comb will give them a guide). Needs must when the devils drive ...

 

[Genesis-Honey]

It's not unusual to have about 20% of the brood as drone brood at this time of the year - my colonies always have lots of drone brood. The question that is more relevant is whether there is 80% of worker brood in the hive - if there is, nothing to be concerned about. If not, you may have a failing queen.

In terms of splits - there are so many options - you can just do a walk away split and let them raise their own queen, you can buy in a queen and then split off a nuc to get her a colony to establish, you can wait until they make swarm preps and do an artificial swarm.

Does not really matter which frames you use to split them - you could use two supers as a temporary hive using the super you have as a half brood. You could put the super frames in the middle of the two super split, dummy it down to just the middle five 'frames' and then give them national frames either side as they need them. Or you could invest in a poly nuc (I use Paynes nucs but I cut out the feeder which give me an 8 frame nucleus which is really useful). Or you could just get another full hive and dummy it down. If you put super frames in a full hive they will add free comb to the bottom of them (again, not a problem - just be a bit careful handling the frames when the comb is fresh. I have two hives that have a couple of national frames in a 14 x 12 box that are drawn down to 14 x 12 size - I keep trying to move them out and the bees keep using them !!

You have to be a bit creative in beekeeping - don't get hung up on what you use - if you don't have the right kit - improvise - they bees will always make up for any deficiencies. I've seen people lose swarms 'because I did not have enough kit to split' .. a simple box made out of KIngspan/Celotex takes minutes to make and will get you out of a hole .. top bars on their own will provide something for them to draw comb on (interspersed with frames of foundation or drawn comb will give them a guide). Needs must when the devils drive ...

I'm quite lucky, I have 2 bs honey poly nucs, one 12 frame Abelo full hive and another 11 frame poly hive all with frames and foundation. I have around 8 frames of drawn national deep too. I've put all of them on newly built stands in the Apiary with the idea that I should have everything to hand, just need to decide how to do it, bit nervous as it's the first split, and so many negatives published around splitting in the same apiary

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

so many negatives published around splitting in the same apiary

they obviously didn't think of using their brains before putting pen to paper

 

[ericbeaumont]

so many negatives published around splitting in the same apiary

What are the negatives? So long as you accept that flying bees in the split will return home, and allow for that by shaking in 3 or so extra combs of bees into the split, all will be well. Make sure the split has a super of honey, to compensate for the loss of foraging flyers.

 

[pargyle]

I'm quite lucky, I have 2 bs honey poly nucs, one 12 frame Abelo full hive and another 11 frame poly hive all with frames and foundation. I have around 8 frames of drawn national deep too. I've put all of them on newly built stands in the Apiary with the idea that I should have everything to hand, just need to decide how to do it, bit nervous as it's the first split, and so many negatives published around splitting in the same apiary

There is nothing to fear about splitting in the same apiary .. the bees know what to do - the virgins will fly to drone congregation areas to find drones with different genetics - you have loads of kit ... (it will never be enough however). Nothing to fear - if you want to keep it simple just split the colony into two boxes - you can do it on the same stand or even vertically and just walk away.. the queenless part will make a new queen.

If you want to do it properly - look up Demaree on here - it's in the stickies section - JBM has an excellen noddy guide in there. (It's only sensible to Demaree before they make swarm preps so you may have missed the boat - but - every day is a learning day in beekeeping !).

 

[pargyle]

they obviously didn't think of using their brains before putting pen to paper

There's a lot of stupid ideas being passed on .. and so called 'experts' passing them on !

 

[Genesis-Honey]

There is nothing to fear about splitting in the same apiary .. the bees know what to do - the virgins will fly to drone congregation areas to find drones with different genetics - you have loads of kit ... (it will never be enough however). Nothing to fear - if you want to keep it simple just split the colony into two boxes - you can do it on the same stand or even vertically and just walk away.. the queenless part will make a new queen.

If you want to do it properly - look up Demaree on here - it's in the stickies section - JBM has an excellen noddy guide in there. (It's only sensible to Demaree before they make swarm preps so you may have missed the boat - but - every day is a learning day in beekeeping !).

This I'm my Apiary, sitting at the base of an apple orchard that is in all stages of blooming due to differing apple varieties.
The all green Abelo is the brood and a half with the super on top.
The red abelo is a full empty hive with a brood box of mostly drawn comb with some foundation, with spare full green supers of foundation.
The brown Apimaye is another colony I bought complete, big mistake as its Dadant and a real pain in the neck, I do however have 3 supers of drawn comb for it so hoping for a nice hiney crop off it. Will look at phasing that out I think later in the year and get it into a national hive.
So plenty of forage for them, I guess I could take 2 brood frames, 2 frames stores/pollen from the green, pop them In the red with the drawn comb, slide the green left and red to the right and let them get on with it.....??
I also have another green abelo deep brood box full of foundation

 

[robmort]

and so many negatives published around splitting in the same apiary

That's a new one! I only ever heard of doing spilts in the same apiary.

 

[ericbeaumont]

I guess I could take 2 brood frames, 2 frames stores/pollen from the green, pop them In the red with the drawn comb, slide the green left and red to the right and let them get on with it.....??

To acheive what? A new queen? To raise one that has been well-fed requires plenty of nurse bees and the best place to find them is in a full box.

Split the green: find the queen, put her in the BB and move it to the red position; add the super, close up. Check that the half brood on the old site has eggs, add a QX and super. Check 5 days later that red has BIAS; reduce QCs in the green to one; leave for 3 weeks, then check for eggs.

The Apimaye is a well-designed hive but will lead to headache: commonality of kit is paramount in beekeeping, so find away to get them into a National.

On that point, why do you have two sizes of National? The 12-frame is an affectation and one extra frame is immaterial: if bees need space, give an extra box. The 12-frame box has a bigger footprint and lipped rims, so uniting with your 11-frame is tricky. The 11-frame roof is more effective at keeping out weather. Make your life easy: run 11-frame Abelo throughout and sell the rest.

PS: are those hive stands level? If not, you will have leaning combs that will reduce effective comb management, so get out a spirit level and adjust. You may also discover that the stands are too close to the hedge line (which will expand) to give freedom to work, but that can be sorted in the winter.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

What are the negatives? So long as you accept that flying bees in the split will return home, and allow for that by shaking in 3 or so extra combs of bees into the split, all will be well. Make sure the split has a super of honey, to compensate for the loss of foraging flyers.

as long as the queenless side of the split has plenty of young nurse bees, and they have plenty of food stores they will cope admirably.
Many people use the 'walkaway split' as a way of making increase - just make up a nuc from your chosen hive, ensuring you have plenty of open brood with eggs and very young larvae, stores and shake in of a few extra frames of bees, take the nuc a few feet away, and then leave them to it.
This also means you are left with a donor hive with a still strong colony of foragers, nurse bees and laying space (so discouraging swarming) which should still bting a good crop of honey.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

are those hive stands level? If not, you will have leaning combs that will reduce effective comb management

Never found that to be the case - unless they are exceptionally out of true

 

[Genesis-Honey]

To acheive what? A new queen? To raise one that has been well-fed requires plenty of nurse bees and the best place to find them is in a full box.

Split the green: find the queen, put her in the BB and move it to the red position; add the super, close up. Check that the half brood on the old site has eggs, add a QX and super. Check 5 days later that red has BIAS; reduce QCs in the green to one; leave for 3 weeks, then check for eggs.

The Apimaye is a well-designed hive but will lead to headache: commonality of kit is paramount in beekeeping, so find away to get them into a National.

On that point, why do you have two sizes of National? The 12-frame is an affectation and one extra frame is immaterial: if bees need space, give an extra box. The 12-frame box has a bigger footprint and lipped rims, so uniting with your 11-frame is tricky. The 11-frame roof is more effective at keeping out weather. Make your life easy: run 11-frame Abelo throughout and sell the rest.

PS: are those hive stands level? If not, you will have leaning combs that will reduce effective comb management, so get out a spirit level and adjust. You may also discover that the stands are too close to the hedge line (which will expand) to give freedom to work, but that can be sorted in the winter.

Hive stand ds are pretty level, however the ground is not, I always have a slight slope to the entrance anyway. The Abelo 12 frame has a built in slope in the floor. Both Abelo are the 12 frame and I find them very good with the rebate, stops boxes sliding about, non issues with water getting in the 12 frame due to the rebate too. The grey poly to the right is just placed as a spare hive, that is the 11 frame hive which may or may not be used this year. Hives have plenty of clearance to the front, done intentionally to provide a windbreak and as they are worked from the rear, no problem.

 

[user 819]

All my colonies have a lot of drones and a BB may contain two or three combs worth of drawn out Drone cells, a bit more then most colonies as I am foundationless and they tend to draw out more drone then worker cells at times.

Still seeing nonsense from posters regarding QC's and drones , the two aren't linked to mean swarming is in hand . It is about time teachings reflected this and that drones are just part of a normal colony equalibrium at this time of year and until autumn chuck out.

One can cut out and remove all drone from a colony and at some stage they will swarm, so that at least should tell one something.

And one expects that one something is that laying room is lacking in most cases or the hive is congested to lack of space for the bees.

 

[SWEET]

Bit nervous as it's the first split, and so many negatives published around splitting in the same apiary

I've several Queens/bees in nucs taken from stocks that were building cells, they are next to or not far from the original hive. All doing 100% fine . Also stops the spread of anything nasty lurking (as a bonus).