Brood/half or 14x12 national hives.

[Angry_Mob]

I got rid of 14 x 12 boxes... total abomination!

Double brood or brood + 1/2 works with even the most prolific of bees.

National hives and frame etc, including foundation is easy to source, and can be a knock down prices in the sales.

14 X 12 = bad back too!!

To me brood and a half sounds like the true abomination.

Most suppliers stock 14x12 and whilst the frames and foundation are slightly more expensive for 14x12 than the standard national; you'll only need half the frames of double brood or brood and a half. So unless you are getting the frames and foundation for less than half the price of the 14x12 its going to cost more not to mention the extra cost of the second brood box.

Currently I keep my dark bees in national and the Buckfasts in the 14x12.

I do wonder had the 14x12 been chosen as the standard size would we now view the current national as the abomination.

 

[DanBee]

If a single National brood is too small, then go to double brood.

14x12 is a placebo; it feels bigger than standard brood (it is!), but it's still a small box... comparable to a single Commercial brood or Langstroth deep. Yes, 14x12 is better than brood and a half (what isn't?!) but it guides you down the mistaken route that one bigger box is the answer, rather than adding a second brood box of the size you already have.

What then when they run out of space in a single 14x12...? If you go to 14x12, then you should be willing to accept that strong colonies will need two 14x12 broods. If that makes you baulk, then think again about double brood.

Double brood gives much more flexibility of management - rearrangement of combs, drawing of foundation, removal of stores-clogged frames, etc. You can also go for the box-at-a-time manipulations - reversals, splits, etc.

14x12 has three principal downsides:

1) It's still a National design, so still inherently suffers from the sticking down of lug ends to the underside of the box above, causing great disruption at inspection time, which the heavier frames exacerbate;

2) Being deep for the width, less leeway to lift one lug then the other without crushing bees between sidebar and inner wall; also virtually no chance of a rattle-free (i.e. no crushing) shake within a frame gap;

3) Most amateur extractors are too small to take a 14x12 frame to extract honey if brood frames become stores-clogged.

I run double brood Commercials, principally, with some Nationals on the side. Often the Nationals are triple brood in the height of the season to give comparable space to a double Commercial. These are not 'super bees', but they get the space they need.

 

[For want of a better word]

One advantage of using brood +1/2 is that in "lean times" the outer "super" frames from the brood +1/2 can be moved up above the qx and fresh undrawn frame from the super above the qx moved down.

disadvantage is that brood + 1/2 takes a lot of typing

This season I could have put 14x 12 boxes above the qx and the bees would have filled them!

Chons da

 

[deemann1]

If a single National brood is too small, then go to double brood.

14x12 is a placebo; it feels bigger than standard brood (it is!), but it's still a small box... comparable to a single Commercial brood or Langstroth deep. Yes, 14x12 is better than brood and a half (what isn't?!) but it guides you down the mistaken route that one bigger box is the answer, rather than adding a second brood box of the size you already have.

What then when they run out of space in a single 14x12...? If you go to 14x12, then you should be willing to accept that strong colonies will need two 14x12 broods. If that makes you baulk, then think again about double brood.

Double brood gives much more flexibility of management - rearrangement of combs, drawing of foundation, removal of stores-clogged frames, etc. You can also go for the box-at-a-time manipulations - reversals, splits, etc.

14x12 has three principal downsides:

1) It's still a National design, so still inherently suffers from the sticking down of lug ends to the underside of the box above, causing great disruption at inspection time, which the heavier frames exacerbate;

2) Being deep for the width, less leeway to lift one lug then the other without crushing bees between sidebar and inner wall; also virtually no chance of a rattle-free (i.e. no crushing) shake within a frame gap;

3) Most amateur extractors are too small to take a 14x12 frame to extract honey if brood frames become stores-clogged.

I run double brood Commercials, principally, with some Nationals on the side. Often the Nationals are triple brood in the height of the season to give comparable space to a double Commercial. These are not 'super bees', but they get the space they need.

Sorry for asking
What is the box at a time manipulation

 

[DanBee]

What is the box at a time manipulation

Anything where you move a box, rather than individual frames. e.g. moving the half of brood and a half under the brood during winter.

 

[Curly green fingers]

Just wondering deemann1 what bees do you keep to get them on triple brood.

 

[youngyoungs]

I started with 14 x 12, and for my own bees have kept with it. I like the fact that the bees have a single box over the winter, they can have their stores as close as they need and in spring / summer there is sufficient brood area for a prolific queen. The frames are heavy when inspecting, I tend to rest a corner on the the box whilst checking them. When full the brood boxes are also heavy, but I have a variety of wood and poly brood boxes and you really notice the difference in the weights then. I do also work with other bees which are on standard nationals or double brood. IMHO double brood (or brood and a half) provides you with some of the advantages of the larger brood area of 14 x 12 but working twice as many frames during inspections and the brace comb I find to be a pain. If you are likely to be selling nucs in future, nucs from 14 x 12 hives will need an extra manipulation to get to Nationals for your buyers.

 

[deemann1]

Just wondering deemann1 what bees do you keep to get them on triple brood.

I don't have bees in triple brood
All single brood
AMM

 

[Curly green fingers]

Sorry I just read back through the posts. you were talking about heights of colony's in certain boxes as a comparison.