Brood frames . . .

[Labrax]

Hi everyone . . .

Friends and I decided we'd like to keep(?) bees. We took a course with the WGBA association . . . it was a good way to become 'hands-on' and find out if it was for us. They were a very friendly association and we subsequently became members. In 2012 we took delivery of a colony each. No honey that year and tbh we were just happy to have 'our' bees. In 2013 we did get some honey, not a great deal, but for us it's not the main purpose for 'having' bees. Anyway, whilst the members of WGBA have been very helpful there comes a point where you really don't like to ring the same people all the time when you're uncertain. So, I thought I'd take the plunge into 'Forum Land'; hopefully it'll not only help me but also any other new beekeepers.

Anyway, enough waffle.

1. Our bee's came in poly nucs and we transferred the brood frames from the Nucs into our brand new hives. Those frames from the Nuc are still in the hive(s) and I can't help thinking that (they are very dark looking now) they should be removed and replaced. My query is what is the accepted wisdom regarding when/how often brood frames/comb should be replaced and, I suppose, how do you go about it. I know I've been told that we shouldn't create a 'barrier' by placing new comb between 'live' brood.

2. Also we captured a swarm last year and managed to quickly 'knock-up' a makeshift 'Nuc' into which they were placed. There's a long story attached to this but I'm not going to digress telling the tale. The long and short is that the colony didn't make it through the winter (I think it was just too small to survive). However, we left the hive in situ and blocked the entrance securely until the spring when my fellow beekeepers unblocked said entrance . . . just in case . . . ready made 'bait-hive'. Lo and behold in late May we get new tenants. Now, having inspected the colony last weekend, we didn't see a queen (though we saw eggs and larvae). If at some future inspection we do spot her, assuming she is unmarked, should we mark her as last years queen or this year. Logically, if she is a queen from another hive, and it's a prime swarm, she should be already marked (assuming her original 'owner' marked her) if not a Prime swarm then she won't be marked and she would then, obviously be a 2014 queen. I'm thinking I've just answered my question myself . . . but appreciate comments if I'm just confused.

Thanks for reading . . .

John

 

[Ben90]

1) when they get dark enough and they seem "manky". I've replaced a handful already this year but some other frames of the same age have mostly been used for stores, so aren't as dark looking yet. So I've left those ones. It's a subjective judgement, really.

2) If she's unmarked then it was probably a cast and she's this year's queen.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Welcome.
There are a few ways to change comb but for simplicity I think it will happen naturally when you have to artificially swarm the colony as it grows and reproduces. As for marking the queen, mark her whatever colour you want. I always use white as it's easy to see. Try looking for a yellow queen amongst pollen laden workers and you'll realise what I mean!
Monitor what is happening regarding varroa too.

2) If she's unmarked then it was probably a cast and she's this year's queen.

Lots of people don't mark their queens or at least not until later in the season

 

[itma]

Welcome to the forum.

You need to get along to Association apiary meetings and visit some other members apiaries … the best possible experience is getting your eyes (and ideally hands) inside as many colonies as possible - and to discuss and try to understand what you are encountering.
Have something to compare your colonies against.


Brood comb should be replaced on something like a three year cycle.
Methods? Look up (forum search even) "bailey comb change" and "shook swarm". But you can also 'rotate' prematurely bad frames to the outside, and then remove once empty of brood.


Queen marking colour.
Its not a law of the land, just a beekeepers' convention.
Its more important that Q is marked, than that the 'correct' colour is used.
That said, I'd suggest that you get a non-standard colour (like Orange) specifically for practicing by marking Drones. Mark lots of Drones before you try a Q. And then make sure your Q is marked a very different colour to all those Drones … !
I only mark Q with this year's colour if I know that she is this year's. But you ought to be able to keep track of Q's age by means of your inspection notes - without need of having to refer to the colour.
If you intend using (the usual) Posco pens, check eBay for a massively wider colour choice.


Q marking pen/colour can also be used (referring back to question 1) to show the age of brood frames (or you can simply write the year on them).
Identifying your brood frames (name, phone number …?) is a very powerful deterrent to colony theft. (And a good use of all the spare paint in those pens!)

 

[enrico]

Welcome. Lovely to get new people on here.
The way I replace frames gradually is by always taking a frame out of one end when I inspect and placing it at the other end when I close up. That way when the frame at the end only has food in if can remove it and replace it with a new one, a bit like a conveyor belt! Or.... You can do a shook swarm so that you are shaking all the bees from old comb onto new, or..... You can use a demaree method to allow you to get new comb without a big shock. These are just a few possibilities. You have to chose which suits you.
As far as the marking goes, don't worry too much. The marking is for your benefit and no one else. I mark all mine in white, sometimes blue as I have a blue marker too and then write the year of the queen on the bb! And in my notes when I write them up after the inspection.
Hope this helps

Blimey! There were three other threads added as I wrote this sorry about the duplication!
E

 

[protheroe]

try to change around 3 combs a year.if you move the old combs to the outer edges of the brood nest,as soon as the bees have hatched you can remove the frames and put new in.if the hive is strong you shouldnt have any problems putting a frame of foundation in between brood frames.as for marking queens,most beekeepers i know dont bother so the queen could be any age within reason.

 

[itma]

Re comb replacement - you need a strong colony (and plenty of fuel) to draw new wax. Try to build the colony strength before thinking of comb change (unless the situation is pretty terrible - which it shouldn't be on a purchased nuc). Brood comb is darkened by brooding. Simply 'a bit dark' isn't cause for premature replacement - especially with a nuc-sized colony!

 

[Finman]

.
Comb change is very simple. You just give foundations to the hive when it enlarges. When you are a new beekeeper, there is no other way to get combs than give foundations.
But first, forget excluder. It is not needed on first half of summer.

When the colony makes burr combs, it is a sign that it is willing to draw foundations.

If you have one box bees, put another box with foundations under the brood box. Bees go downwards as they do in nature.

Shake bees to produce new combs....absolutely no sense.

My hives draw every year 2-3 boxes foundations during flow. It is very easy.

AS is another way to get new combs. To stop swarming fever needs foundations.

If you use douple brood, then renewing combs is very flexible.

.

 

[Finman]

Today I added third boxes to my small colonies. I put half foundations and half ready combs.

Weather is very cold here. We got snow onto ground during few days. That is why I put the third box lowest.


Raspberry is in full bloom. First spring rapes start to open first flowers.

 

[Finman]

try to change around 3 combs a year.if you move the old combs to the outer edges of the brood nest,as soon as the bees have hatched you can remove the frames and put new in.if the hive is strong you shouldnt have any problems putting a frame of foundation in between brood frames.as for marking queens,most beekeepers i know dont bother so the queen could be any age within reason.

That is wrong way to handle foundations. Do not split brood area with foundations.

To me stong hive is 4-6 langstroth boxes. But it is better that during flow you put a whole box of foundations between honey box and brood if you have 4 boxes.

 

[Labrax]

Well, thank you all for your responses. I have to admit that I thought, due to the WGBA course, the Queen marking & colours was 'standard'. Going on the replies that doesn't seem to be the case at all. I can see the logic. As long as accurate hive records are kept, then all that's needed is a 'mark' so that the Queen can be easily 'spotted' (plus point, saves on buying several marker pens - every little helps). I'm not doing very well with keeping records the paper ones are an arse. I was going to 'knock-up' a spread sheet . . . but I noticed on perusing the Forum that there are dedicated software packages. Have to look at those . . . but have a feeling they'll be more complicated than I need/want.

Itma . . . yes, I absolutely agree, getting more hands on experience and learning from more experienced beekeepers is by far the best method. Just a bit difficult for me due to the hours I work. I take your point about using the Forum search, apologies, I went for the short-cut as I wasn't sure exactly what I need to use as regards search terms. Having looked I see that there are numerous threads on the Bailey Method - but I'd never have known about the method until you mentioned it. Good suggestion re. marking the brood frame. I'll certainly take that on board. We have three colonies at the moment (and due to space constraints thats about as many as we can accomadate - unfortunately). Colonies 1 & 2 both swarmed in May last year . . . but both sets of beekeepers were out of the country, and the bees were being left to their own devices for two weeks. The person minding the property was very kind and took a photo of the swarm and 'messaged' me with the photo (see image - hoping its worked). However, even with that setback we still collected some honey at the end of the season. Having said that this year both 1 & 2 colnies were slow to get going and as of the last inspection had not even started to show interest in storing honey in the single super that we had placed on each.

We opened both hives last Saturday and more by luck (I suspect) than anything we spotted both Queens. It was a tense moment as we dropped the 'crown of thorns' over the Queen. But both were successfully 'dabbed' with some 'red'. Is there a view on whether marking the queen exposes a danger that the 'workers' will kill her due the the marking?

As for the comb replacement I think that marking the combs with a date and then using either Protheroe's or Enrico's suggestions are a practical solution for our limited number of colonies.

Once again thank you all for your time . . .

Rgds

John

p.s. Erichalfbee . . . . good point about 'yellow' as a marker colour. I can see it would make things difficult.

 

[itma]

…
Itma . . . yes, I absolutely agree, getting more hands on experience and learning from more experienced beekeepers is by far the best method. Just a bit difficult for me due to the hours I work. I take your point about using the Forum search, apologies, I went for the short-cut as I wasn't sure exactly what I need to use as regards search terms. Having looked I see that there are numerous threads on the Bailey Method - but I'd never have known about the method until you mentioned it. …

Just a couple of points -

-- I didn't actually suggest "learning from more experienced beekeepers" (though that is often, or at least sometimes, a good thing! ) what I suggested was trying to get to see inside lots of other colonies, so you have an idea how your colonies compare as regards comb darkening, bee temper, colony strength, etc
Association hives are often inspected at odd times (they don't generally get ignored between monthly meetings!) And the same goes for other beeks, they don't only inspect on weekend afternoons. The thing is to make contact with other localish beeks. You don't have to be at a very different level - friends with similar experience can still help, teach and learn from each other. But the important thing is to get enough experience of other colonies to be able to 'benchmark' your own.

-- and the reason that I put quotes around the terms Bailey Comb Change and Shook Swarm was specifically so that you had the right terms to search for!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Alright John
A lot of beekeepers just mark their queens whatever colour they fancy, a lot of us follow the marking convention as well, you were taught the correct way so that later on you can make your own choices. If I get a swarm with an unmarked queen I mark her pink as a 'don't know'.
Replacing comb as per Enrico or Protheroe is recommended but as Erichalfbee said, you do find that a lot of the time they get renewed in different ways.

 

[Finman]

.
In this chain comb renewal was proposed to do with the most difficult way. Bees draw new combs when you give new foundation when time is proper. You must rethink too, how to use excluder that system will not become too rigid or omplex.

 

[Finman]

You can do a shook swarm so that you are shaking all the bees from old comb onto new, or..... You can use a demaree method to allow you to get new comb without a big shock. These are just a few possibilities. You have to chose which suits you.

E

Shook swarms are needed in severe disease cases, not in normal comb renewal. It is same with Demaree, it is swarm prevention tool, and foundations are needed to cut swarming fever.

If you have old brood combs, put a new foundation box under the old combs, and bees will draw new combs. Then lift old brood combs over the excluder when new combs are almost ready. But this is better to fo during flow.

 

[Labrax]

Part of our dilemma has been solved . . . .

On the Colony 3 that set up home in the 'spare' hive, being concerned that they were lacking in space, and not having a 'super' with any frames handy, we pressed into service a brood box and frames/foundation (we're waiting for 'ordered' supers to arrive). Last Saturday (14th) there was only one partially drawn frame, however, we had a shock Saturday just gone (21st) as the colony had not only drawn all but three of the brood frames in the 'ad-hoc' addition but had also partially filled several with honey/nectar. Bit of consternation ensued, as we realised that we couldn't allow that situation to continue, as we probably wouldn't be able to extract the honey from those frames (only access to three frame extractor, and not sure if it would handle brood frames). Luckily I'd brought up a 'super' and frames that was intended for Colony 2. So we inserted that between the two brood boxes. With hindsight I'm not sure if we should have put that on the top rather than between - bees work top down?

Whilst appreciating that bees are renowned for being industrious I was amazed that thay could have achieved so much in a week. Anyway, we now have a number of ready drawn brood frames which we can utilise when we decide how we're going to rotate the 'older' stock out of usage.

Our current plan is, in order to bring the nectar/honey out of those brood frames, to place a crown board between the top brood box and the 'new' super. From various pieces I've read, and information from attending apiary meetings, am I right in believing that the bees will treat the brood box above the inserted crown board as being outside of their colony, and retrieve the honey from there into the super below the crown board? Should I leave both 'holes' in the crown board 'open' or block one? Is the above a workable solution (i.e. to retrieve the contents), or should I/we be doing something else.

Cheers

John

 

[Labrax]

Alright John
A lot of beekeepers just mark their queens whatever colour they fancy, a lot of us follow the marking convention as well, you were taught the correct way so that later on you can make your own choices. If I get a swarm with an unmarked queen I mark her pink as a 'don't know'.
Replacing comb as per Enrico or Protheroe is recommended but as Erichalfbee said, you do find that a lot of the time they get renewed in different ways.

Hi Emyr,

Yes, fully accept that we were taught the 'correct' procedure regarding the marking convention. I didn't doubt that for one minute. I think the course that the WGBA provided was great and the support network, in the shape of the various more experienced beekeepers (such as yourself), that is still available is fantastic. As I said earlier in this thread . . . you/I just feel a bit awkward ringing up and pestering people about small matters. Hence the use of this Forum.

J.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

you/I just feel a bit awkward ringing up and pestering people about small matters. Hence the use of this Forum.

J.

Don't worry - no offence taken with the marking. This year I've also learnt that marking them in any colour can be a bar to finding them. struggled to find a queen in one colony for the whole of this season (one of the 'red' ones we marked last year) reason? mind geared to finding a red spot which. when I eventually found her was almost completely worn off.
This forum also gives you a wide cross section of methods and ideas so gives you a choice of options (and makes you think) cross pollination is always a good idea it's also just a fun place to be (most of the time!) For your information, The multi - storey hive is building up again - now on four supers, as is another one - on a demarree so four supers with a BB on top!!