Brood box & super

[moorparkbees]

Hello,

I’ve been gifted a hive with over wintered bees, the super was on top when I got them and 4 of the super frames have capped brood, larvae and eggs on them but no eggs in the brood box. I have moved the super to the bottom for now but was just wondering if I should shake off all the bees from the super frames and put it back on top with an excluder? Will they start to use the super frames as honey stores once all the eggs have hatched? I have 2 extra supers with foundation as spare also if that helps?

Thanks in advance and sorry for all the questions!

 

[enrico]

It depends. Sounds as though it was set up as brood and a half. They may need that extra space. Just because it is a super box does not mean it can't be used for brood. You can put it above an excluder but any drones will get trapped. If you want to run brood and a half then I prefer to have the small box on the bottom as then any queen cells tend to be between the two boxes. Hope this helps. Do you have any experience?
E

 

[moorparkbees]

Thanks, yes the lady who gave me the hive said that she normally has brood and half but the brood box is pretty empty bar one frame so I don’t think they need the room. This is my first year, I spent last year doing a course with the west herts bee society.

Cheers
Josh

 

[Murox]

Might be an idea to make contact with your nearest association and get yourself hitched up with a mentor, or at least another beek who could give you a few pointers and with whom you could talk.
For the time being leave things as they are. Seek advice locally and have a think about how you want proceed.

 

[moorparkbees]

Hey, I’m waiting for a mentor to become available but for now I’m wanting to clear the super so they use the brood box, just looking for the best way to do that.

Thanks

Josh

 

[Murox]

Shaking them into the BB is very rough on them, though it will probably work,BUT i am not sure why you want them in BB; as Enrico mentioned the "super" is just a box with a particular size of frame. You don't really say what is in the brood box, capped brood? stores ? How many seams of bees in it ? You have reversed the boxes, in time they will begin to move up, but they will also fill the upper box with stores as well. If you're ok with that then when that top box is around two thirds full put on a queen excluder and add a super and continue as 'normal'.(from floor up your set up would be super sized box, Brood Box, queen excluder, new super). Then by next early spring having overwintered they will have moved up as a cluster into the top (real brood) box. Its only a suggestion and one way of achieving it.

 

[Ian123]

If there only on a few frames in the super and 1brood frame I would suggest you need to find out why they are so small

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

It depends. Sounds as though it was set up as brood and a half. They may need that extra space. Just because it is a super box does not mean it can't be used for brood. You can put it above an excluder but any drones will get trapped. If you want to run brood and a half then I prefer to have the small box on the bottom as then any queen cells tend to be between the two boxes. Hope this helps. Do you have any experience?
E

Eric - ive been running brood and half on 3 of mine. Was looking to follow Wally Shaw's advice to switch the shallow with the standard depending on where the top of the brood sits ie if you find the upper box has honey and stores at the top (covering most frames) then swap so the brood then becomes the top. If there are tons of stores in the shallow then move to super and introduce new combed shallow under the standard...and so on.

Do you follow this? Any comments on what is trying to be achieved? Basically he says "keep the top of the brood by the QE which is where the bee keeper wants it."

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

 

[enrico]

Eric - ive been running brood and half on 3 of mine. Was looking to follow Wally Shaw's advice to switch the shallow with the standard depending on where the top of the brood sits ie if you find the upper box has honey and stores at the top (covering most frames) then swap so the brood then becomes the top. If there are tons of stores in the shallow then move to super and introduce new combed shallow under the standard...and so on.

Do you follow this? Any comments on what is trying to be achieved? Basically he says "keep the top of the brood by the QE which is where the bee keeper wants it."

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

Honestly? The bees will find their own level. I keep the boxes with the brood on top for my own benefit. I never check the shallow box underneath. If there are queen cells, they can usually be found at the bottom of the deep box. It is easier for me and less hassle for the bees to just check a top deep box
E

 

[Curly green fingers]

Eric - ive been running brood and half on 3 of mine. Was looking to follow Wally Shaw's advice to switch the shallow with the standard depending on where the top of the brood sits ie if you find the upper box has honey and stores at the top (covering most frames) then swap so the brood then becomes the top. If there are tons of stores in the shallow then move to super and introduce new combed shallow under the standard...and so on.

Do you follow this? Any comments on what is trying to be achieved? Basically he says "keep the top of the brood by the QE which is where the bee keeper wants it."

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

In some ways Johnny I do the same as early swarm prevention box reversals with brood/half .
And transfering stores from the brood super into honey super.
I also don't use qx so have had brood in the honey super (third box) but I move the brood out below in to the half giving the queen free run of all boxes keeps hm with lots of space all the time.
I hope I've made this clear ??

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

Honestly? The bees will find their own level. I keep the boxes with the brood on top for my own benefit. I never check the shallow box underneath. If there are queen cells, they can usually be found at the bottom of the deep box. It is easier for me and less hassle for the bees to just check a top deep box
E

Check his description online. I think the manipulation is only once a season and only if necessary.

Do you check that bottom box at all? Do you over winter on BaaH?

 

[JonnyPicklechin]

In some ways Johnny I do the same as early swarm prevention box reversals with brood/half .
And transfering stores from the brood super into honey super.
I also don't use qx so have had brood in the honey super (third box) but I move the brood out below in to the half giving the queen free run of all boxes keeps hm with lots of space all the time.
I hope I've made this clear ??

Yes very clear Mark. I think the idea is if you do have a QE and you check that the "top brood surface" is always there then you dont have brood infiltrating the supers. But your's works because you can just move those frames with brood below. (I like QE because I understand it's use like I understand the offside trap - It's there for a reason and can be used for a defensive strategy.)

I think Eric makes a good point that he fears continually messing with vertical frame positions. But actually given you dont make these vertical changes very often, I find keeping an eye on them makes you notice the brood nest and you you become more aware of the hive dynamics. Particularly important for me in this weird period in my 4th year where I think I am getting the hang of this, only to be foiled again. And then again.

 

[Poly Hive]

Relying on seeing cells between boxes is a reliable way of losing swarms. It's rubbish advice that keeps being trotted out.
PH

 

[mjt68]

Hello,

I’ve been gifted a hive with over wintered bees, the super was on top when I got them and 4 of the super frames have capped brood, larvae and eggs on them but no eggs in the brood box. I have moved the super to the bottom for now but was just wondering if I should shake off all the bees from the super frames and put it back on top with an excluder? Will they start to use the super frames as honey stores once all the eggs have hatched? I have 2 extra supers with foundation as spare also if that helps?

Thanks in advance and sorry for all the questions!

Remember the boxes themselves are shallow or deeps, brood box or super refer to their current usage. This isn't (just) pendantry - you can have brood in 2 shallow brood boxes with a deep on top as a super if you want. You are searching for a solution to a problem which doesn't exist: nothing bad will happen if they're brooding in a shallow box. Right now I'd be worrying about why there's only 4 shallow frames of brood and thinkibg what you could do to help them