Brood and a half advice please

[Widget]

Hi. I am in my second season of beekeeping. I have found this year much more difficult and have had a lot of problems which I won't go into detail about now. My hived swarm was building up really quickly and my mentor advised me to add a super as brood and a half to give them more room. I was planning to put a QE between the brood and the "half" once numbers have started reducing and get my bees back in the brood box only for the winter as I have found manipulations more tricky with the bees on brood and a half. However, I found a guide by Wally Shaw which indicates the bees overwinter better on brood and a half as this is more akin to the way feral bees cluster and they are able to regulate the temperature more easily with the cluster being longer and thinner. I couldn't help thinking that maybe feral bees don't have much choice about this as if they have colonized a tree trunk, the shape doesn't give them any other option given that trees generally are taller than they are wide.
I know I will probably get differing opinions. A beekeeper once told me that if you ask 2 beekeepers the same question you will get at least 3 different answers! I just want to do what is best for my bees but also need to bear in mind my beekeeping capabilities - or lack of them - gong into next year.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

You are better doing it in spring.
Brood and a half is never the answe to anything unless the question was "think I've cocked up here"
Learn to manage the bees (there are options, Denarree just being one) or if they really do need more space, go straight to double brood.

 

[Amari]

Hi. I am in my second season of beekeeping. I have found this year much more difficult and have had a lot of problems which I won't go into detail about now. My hived swarm was building up really quickly and my mentor advised me to add a super as brood and a half to give them more room. I was planning to put a QE between the brood and the "half" once numbers have started reducing and get my bees back in the brood box only for the winter as I have found manipulations more tricky with the bees on brood and a half. However, I found a guide by Wally Shaw which indicates the bees overwinter better on brood and a half as this is more akin to the way feral bees cluster and they are able to regulate the temperature more easily with the cluster being longer and thinner. I couldn't help thinking that maybe feral bees don't have much choice about this as if they have colonized a tree trunk, the shape doesn't give them any other option given that trees generally are taller than they are wide.
I know I will probably get differing opinions. A beekeeper once told me that if you ask 2 beekeepers the same question you will get at least 3 different answers! I just want to do what is best for my bees but also need to bear in mind my beekeeping capabilities - or lack of them - gong into next year.

You're right to predict several different answers. Try reading the posts on this recent thread stated by Horatio on thee main forum.
What to do with honey super while treating with Apivar.

There is no completely right or wrong procedure re whether to overwinter with a super. However we all agree: no QX in winter - the bees must be free to move between boxes to follow the stores

 

[enrico]

Put the half under the brood box. The bees will probably have emptied it by spring and you can remove it. Go double brood box rather than brood and a half in the future because you can then manipulate the frames to produce one box if needed!

 

[StephenT]

I’m 2nd year as well and hived a swarm in my first year, put them on brood and a half after a while and have been following the method that Wally Shaw sets out. They put plenty of stores in the half through feeding last autumn and overwintered fine on it. This spring I put it underneath the brood box and I’ll move it above again soon before feeding for winter (it’s pretty empty now with a bit of brood and stored pollen). I am not using brood and a half on my two newer hives but will go to double brood next spring if need be.

 

[Widget]

You're right to predict several different answers. Try reading the posts on this recent thread stated by Horatio on thee main forum.
What to do with honey super while treating with Apivar.

There is no completely right or wrong procedure re whether to overwinter with a super. However we all agree: no QX in winter - the bees must be free to move between boxes to follow the stores

Thanks for the advice, although I only intended putting the QE on temporarily until any brood in the super had hatched. If there were any stores in the super, I would then put it under the brood box (nadir?) for the bees to take it into the brood box. I would then remove the empty super. I have already put the super under the brood box and the bees took all the stores up into the brood box so I put the super back on top. Due to a lot of problems this year I do not have any honey supers. Anything the bees have stored will be left with them but I am currently feeding them as they have little in the way of stores.

 

[Amari]

Thanks for the advice, although I only intended putting the QE on temporarily until any brood in the super had hatched. If there were any stores in the super, I would then put it under the brood box (nadir?) for the bees to take it into the brood box. I would then remove the empty super. I have already put the super under the brood box and the bees took all the stores up into the brood box so I put the super back on top. Due to a lot of problems this year I do not have any honey supers. Anything the bees have stored will be left with them but I am currently feeding them as they have little in the way of stores.

Yes, many folk put a super with stores under the BB then remove it when empty. I remove in spring, others remove in autumn.
Re Enrico's (he writes articles in Beecraft for second-year beeks) esteemed advice, post 4 above, working double BB is enjoyable and a way of increasing the number of foragers. However, just a few weeks ago, two neighbour-beeks helping me to introduce new Qs, metaphorically took me by the arm and, in a kindly way, suggested that senior OAPs like me are unwise to work double BBs. So, unless you are an Amazon, take care.....!

 

[enrico]

Yes, many folk put a super with stores under the BB then remove it when empty. I remove in spring, others remove in autumn.
Re Enrico's (he writes articles in Beecraft for second-year beeks) esteemed advice, post 4 above, working double BB is enjoyable and a way of increasing the number of foragers. However, just a few weeks ago, two neighbour-beeks helping me to introduce new Qs, metaphorically took me by the arm and, in a kindly way, suggested that senior OAPs like me are unwise to work double BBs. So, unless you are an Amazon, take care.....!

If I work a double brood I never inspect the bottom brood box. Swarm cells will generally appear between the two brood boxes attached to the top one. If I lose a swarm it is a risk I am prepared to take. I only inspect the top brood box. Another reason for putting a half brood under the main box!

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

If I work a double brood I never inspect the bottom brood box. Swarm cells will generally appear between the two brood boxes attached to the top one. If I lose a swarm it is a risk I am prepared to take. I only inspect the top brood box. Another reason for putting a half brood under the main box!

I made the same mistake with brood and a half and intend to get to where Enrico points us next Spring. The half has been a real nuisance this Summer restricting virtually everything I wanted to do.

 

[Swarm]

Judicious use of insulated dummy boards in double broods help keep the weight down as you can give the colony the nest capacity it requires while the honey goes up in the supers.

 

[enrico]

Thanks for the advice, although I only intended putting the QE on temporarily until any brood in the super had hatched. If there were any stores in the super, I would then put it under the brood box (nadir?) for the bees to take it into the brood box. I would then remove the empty super. I have already put the super under the brood box and the bees took all the stores up into the brood box so I put the super back on top. Due to a lot of problems this year I do not have any honey supers. Anything the bees have stored will be left with them but I am currently feeding them as they have little in the way of stores.

You are getting totally confused.
The bees will always store their honey at the top. If they have moved it from the super to the brood box already, why have you put the super back on top of the brood box, all they will do is move it back again! Leave the super under the brood box where they can use it if they want to. Do not use a queen excluder. In spring the super will be empty and you can remove it and use it as a proper super. You are just making the bees work very hard for no benefit to you or them.
E

 

[Arfermo]

The bees will always store their honey at the top. If they have moved it from the nadired super to the brood box already, why have you put the super back on top of the brood box? Leave the super under the brood box where they can use it if they want to. Do not use a queen excluder. In spring the super will be empty and you can remove it and use it as a proper super. You are just making the bees work very hard for no benefit to you or them.
E

Hear, hear!!

 

[Curly green finger's]

Or keep it as a brood box and reverse boxes when the colony is expanding.
Add a third half and run a three box system no qx.. And reverse boxes through out the season as a prevention for swarming..
Makes for a nice big colony.

I've a colony in the garden that I've just taken my fifth super off doing the above, no swarm preps either.
I won't be putting my tin hat on either!!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hear, hear!!

Hear Hear Hear too
It's because people don't understand why they are putting the super underneath.
It's for the bees to move the stores up.
I used to do it a lot but I got fed up dealing with mouldy frames in the spring so now I spin the honey out and feed it back to the bees then store the supers wet

 

[Widget]

Yes, many folk put a super with stores under the BB then remove it when empty. I remove in spring, others remove in autumn.
Re Enrico's (he writes articles in Beecraft for second-year beeks) esteemed advice, post 4 above, working double BB is enjoyable and a way of increasing the number of foragers. However, just a few weeks ago, two neighbour-beeks helping me to introduce new Qs, metaphorically took me by the arm and, in a kindly way, suggested that senior OAPs like me are unwise to work double BBs. So, unless you are an Amazon, take care.....!

I am not an Amazon! I am in my 60's and small and slight although fairly fit. I was actually trying to find out whether, if I can get my bees just into a brood box and off brood and a half, whether this would do them any harm going into the winter. I don't want to be moving 2 brood boxes about as it is the issue of moving a brood box and a super around that I am trying to avoid. I appreciate your advice.

 

[Widget]

If I work a double brood I never inspect the bottom brood box. Swarm cells will generally appear between the two brood boxes attached to the top one. If I lose a swarm it is a risk I am prepared to take. I only inspect the top brood box. Another reason for putting a half brood under the main box!

Unfortunately I have to do my best to avoid swarms as I have neighbours all around me. This is why I put them on brood and a half in the first place. However, if I can get them back into just the brood box I will try alternative methods of swarm prevention so that I am not having to move brood boxes and supers around next year.

 

[Swarm]

What's your plans for next year then? Your only other option is to change hive type. Try double brood with eight frames over eight and dummy the space, supers are heavier.

 

[Widget]

You are getting totally confused.
The bees will always store their honey at the top. If they have moved it from the super to the brood box already, why have you put the super back on top of the brood box, all they will do is move it back again! Leave the super under the brood box where they can use it if they want to. Do not use a queen excluder. In spring the super will be empty and you can remove it and use it as a proper super. You are just making the bees work very hard for no benefit to you or them.
E

You are right, I am getting totally confused. I was feeling confused and useless before I posted on the forum. I was very hesitant about posting on here having viewed responses to other people's posts but as I couldn't find anything helpful regarding reducing back down from brood and a half I thought I would bite the bullet and ask for help. Unfortunately I am feeling even more confused and even more useless.

 

[enrico]

You are right, I am getting totally confused. I was feeling confused and useless before I posted on the forum. I was very hesitant about posting on here having viewed responses to other people's posts but as I couldn't find anything helpful regarding reducing back down from brood and a half I thought I would bite the bullet and ask for help. Unfortunately I am feeling even more confused and even more useless.

That isn't the idea. We are trying to help. If you want to private message me using the envelope thing at the top right then please do and I will do all I can to explain things to you. Keep smiling.
There is nothing wrong with using one brood box in the winter as long as you feed in the autumn until it is very heavy. I like one brood box in the winter too. I am well into my sixties so age is no problem . Read my previous post again to try and get your head round it.
Any capped stores should be above the brood box if you want to add another super
Any uncapped stores should go under the brood box so that they can move them up. You then remove that super when it is empty.
I am going to pm you anyway
E

 

[Swarm]

The only confusion is you put the super back on top after they emptied it. You can nadir it again the same as before and remove it early Spring.