Brood and a half advice please

[Widget]

The only confusion is you put the super back on top after they emptied it. You can nadir it again the same as before and remove it early Spring.

Thanks Steve. I had read the Wally Shaw article which suggested that the "half" should be at the top from September to April. There is a small amount of brood in the "half" which is why I put it back on top rather than removing it. I think I will do as you suggest and put it back underneath as long as it isn't going to upset my bees too much and as long as it doesn't upset other members of this site - I don't want to get any more flack for moving it again! Then I will remove it in early Spring.
I just want to do what is best for the bees. I have been losing sleep over what to do for the best which is why I asked for advice.
Thanks again. Very helpful.

 

[enrico]

With respect I don't think any of the replies were giving you flack. They were all trying to help or giving you examples. So often there is never a simple answer, and alot depends on the information we are given by the poster. The fact that there was brood in the half super was for example just thrown in. It does make a difference. Try and read this positively and not negatively. We are a friendly bunch in general and would love for you to understand where we are coming from too!
E

 

[thorn]

The only confusion is you put the super back on top after they emptied it. You can nadir it again the same as before and remove it early Spring.

The classicists here like to ensure that you know that a shallow box is only a "super" when it's above the brood box. If you put it below, you "nadir" it, and it's no longer a super.

 

[Swarm]

Thanks Steve. I had read the Wally Shaw article which suggested that the "half" should be at the top from September to April. There is a small amount of brood in the "half" which is why I put it back on top rather than removing it. I think I will do as you suggest and put it back underneath as long as it isn't going to upset my bees too much and as long as it doesn't upset other members of this site - I don't want to get any more flack for moving it again! Then I will remove it in early Spring.
I just want to do what is best for the bees. I have been losing sleep over what to do for the best which is why I asked for advice.
Thanks again. Very helpful.

The fact you are worrying what to do for the best means you care, that's good enough for me!
Shallows (usually) are used for various things and this can mean different manipulations. I think Wally's are all about maximising brood nest potential IIRC.
The Nadir seems to cause most confusion and somewhere along the line the message has changed. It has never been done as a benefit for the bees but rather as a means of clearing up unripe honey. OK, the bees get extra stores for Winter but the beekeeper only did it to clean the super for next year. Confusion now has new beekeepers taking a full super and sticking it under the bees. Robbing is always a concern when nadiring so moving all their stores down must cause no end of stress.
Brood box size has to match your queen/s and usable comb is just as important so work out all those frames with holes and other defects that restrict laying capacity. I have native bees so most are happy in a single national. I have others who need more space but they will never require a full double with 22 frames so these hives I dummy down. The lifting is no heavier than a super and I still only inspect the top one. Any swarm prep and you will see cells in the top and then you look downstairs. When it comes to Winter, leave on double and they have all the room and more for stores. My strongest colony this Spring over Wintered on 16 frames 8 over 8 and had no feed at all.
The main thing is, you keep all your brood on same size frames.

 

[Swarm]

The classicists here like to ensure that you know that a shallow box is only a "super" when it's above the brood box. If you put it below, you "nadir" it, and it's no longer a super.

I agree, however comments like that in between comments trying to help only serves to add to the confusion, IMO.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The classicists here like to ensure that you know that a shallow box is only a "super" when it's above the brood box. If you put it below, you "nadir" it, and it's no longer a super.

But you can nadir a super, same as you can super a nadir

 

[thorn]

I agree, however comments like that in between comments trying to help only serves to add to the confusion, IMO.

As you'd thrown the word "nadir" into the equation without explanation I felt that should the OP not have had a classical education, someone ought to say how the word fits into the thread, to avoid the confusion you inadvertently introduced.

 

[thorn]

But you can nadir a super, same as you can super a nadir

It's time for supper.

 

[Widget]

The fact you are worrying what to do for the best means you care, that's good enough for me!
Shallows (usually) are used for various things and this can mean different manipulations. I think Wally's are all about maximising brood nest potential IIRC.
The Nadir seems to cause most confusion and somewhere along the line the message has changed. It has never been done as a benefit for the bees but rather as a means of clearing up unripe honey. OK, the bees get extra stores for Winter but the beekeeper only did it to clean the super for next year. Confusion now has new beekeepers taking a full super and sticking it under the bees. Robbing is always a concern when nadiring so moving all their stores down must cause no end of stress.
Brood box size has to match your queen/s and usable comb is just as important so work out all those frames with holes and other defects that restrict laying capacity. I have native bees so most are happy in a single national. I have others who need more space but they will never require a full double with 22 frames so these hives I dummy down. The lifting is no heavier than a super and I still only inspect the top one. Any swarm prep and you will see cells in the top and then you look downstairs. When it comes to Winter, leave on double and they have all the room and more for stores. My strongest colony this Spring over Wintered on 16 frames 8 over 8 and had no feed at all.
The main thing is, you keep all your brood on same size frames.

Thank you. I do care about my bees- maybe too much! Your post makes a lot of sense and I may even try the double brood with 8 over 8 next year. I shall leave the "kiddies" to argue about when is a nadir not a nadir as you are quite right- their comments are not helpful to me at all.

 

[fiat500bee]

Given that it seems to be the accepted term to call the shallow box a "super", it would follow that when placed under a brood box it would logically be called a "nadir". Or you would either "nadir" a shallow box or "super" the same. But to "nadir" a "super" seems an odd contradiction and no wonder it gets we novice beekeepers confused.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The Nadir seems to cause most confusion and somewhere along the line the message has changed. It has never been done as a benefit for the bees but rather as a means of clearing up unripe honey. OK, the bees get extra stores for Winter but the beekeeper only did it to clean the super for next year. Confusion now has new beekeepers taking a full super and sticking it under the bees. Robbing is always a concern when nadiring so moving all their stores down must cause no end of stress.

It has gone from being a simple way to clear up the odd frame of unripe honey, or giving the hive a buffer zone over the OMF in more exposed apiaries to being a religion in itself. I think someone commented to me a while ago that nadiring seems to be fashionable 'thing', the 'shook swarm' of 2020! shifting a box full of honey and dumping it under the brood was never the plan.

 

[fiat500bee]

Confusion now has new beekeepers taking a full super and sticking it under the bees. Robbing is always a concern when nadiring so moving all their stores down must cause no end of stress.
.

Thank-you for that clarity; many Facebook beekeping groups keep repeating a mantra that says we should do just what you give good reason for us not to do.