BIBBA Regional meeting In February

[Apple]

I think that the "purity of stock" argument will always be there.
However to "loose" a species would be foolhardy, as it will never be known when those "rare breed" genes may be of use.
I daresay that Longhorn cattle may not be totally suited to a commercial grass farmer, but they are still being bred and kept (and sent to the butcher). I have never read that Longhorns as a breed are not worth the feed and should not be kept.No doubt the "species" if it is one (Breed???) genetics seems worthy of saving?

A number of "commercial" bee farmers would appear to use Amm successfully as being suited to their specific climate.

Perhaps the "improvement" description is to do with breeding out the unwanted genes from other sub species?

I hope to find out.

James

 

[Thymallus]

If you want to keep rare breed cattle thats your choice to make. Most of us are hobbyist beekeepers and indulge ourselves. Some of us take advantage of the other breeds around, some don't. All down to personal preference.
As for breeding out unwanted genes.depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you are trying to get the full Amm genome back from our current native mongrels..close to a genetic impossibility. Crossovers between DNA strands genes preclude this. You can't breed back to pure strains if you start with mongrels.
However, if you want breed to out certain characteristics, that is doable, but as we have so little control over our drone lines it becomes very difficult long term.

I also know of bee farmers who are using local natives, I'm shocked at how many hives they need to get a commercial return, when they could get much more from less if they invested in better stock.

 

[Apple]

If you want to keep rare breed cattle thats your choice to make. Most of us are hobbyist beekeepers and indulge ourselves. Some of us take advantage of the other breeds around, some don't. All down to personal preference.
As for breeding out unwanted genes.depends on what you are trying to achieve. If you are trying to get the full Amm genome back from our current native mongrels..close to a genetic impossibility. Crossovers between DNA strands genes preclude this. You can't breed back to pure strains if you start with mongrels.
However, if you want breed to out certain characteristics, that is doable, but as we have so little control over our drone lines it becomes very difficult long term.

I also know of bee farmers who are using local natives, I'm shocked at how many hives they need to get a commercial return, when they could get much more from less if they invested in better stock.

Seeing the constant honey production from Amms in all years convinced me to go with them a few years back, my sister, although in a slightly different area seems to have some good years and a lot of not so good years with her "ferrari" bees.
I would call my bees near native, the discoidal shift is well down into the minus, and they are very dark and good natured.
I can attempt to control the drone line in my apiary due to isolation, and the way and times in which native bees tend to mate, and of course by drone flooding.

BA did much the same.

That is one massive herring you have there, must be a good lens to get such a massive depth of field !

James

 

[mbc]

I also know of bee farmers who are using local natives, I'm shocked at how many hives they need to get a commercial return, when they could get much more from less if they invested in better stock.

How sustainable is that though?
Once on the imports treadmill you have to keep going or overhaul right through the stock, whereas with natives you can quietly improve them without having to constantly buy in, and I would argue your point about getting more from imported stock, possibly some seasons if they were intensively managed, but by and large, especially in more marginal areas, native stock will more than hold its own in most seasons, and with a little bit of improvement (ie. selective breeding over a number of years) it will generally outdo imported stock, it does round here anyway.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I think that the "purity of stock" argument will always be there.
However to "loose" a species would be foolhardy, as it will never be known when those "rare breed" genes may be of use.

I agree, it is important that all of the various sub species need to be preserved as best we can, wherever in the world they are.

 

[Thymallus]

How sustainable is that though?
Once on the imports treadmill you have to keep going or overhaul right through the stock, whereas with natives you can quietly improve them without having to constantly buy in, .

One of things I have found is that the natives appear to vary in different regions and within small distances. There are many bee keepers who simply give up because of their local bees aggression...usually because the advice of the old hands tell 'em do a 5-6 years breeding plan, son and you'll have manageable bees.. I'm perhaps unfortunate that despite breeding for several years I simply kept ending up with aggressive non productive native bees. I'll happily hold my hand up and say I'm not the best queen breeder in the world, but after several years of attempts to get some decent stock it wasn't working. I ended up dreading hive inspections.
Tried some imports and all is bliss and pleasure again. I know what the shortcomings are of this approach and know I need to buy fresh queens on a regular basis, such is the problem of beekeeping with no drone control in the UK. Expense is really negligible and as it's my hobby its one I'm happy to pay for having docile productive bees. I'm always slightly surprised why expense always comes into it as an argument against this approach....for some reason it always does.. Decent queens are not that expensive, shall we say a £100 quid every couple of years for a decent queen to breed for a few generations.
How much have people spent in the recent sales for the "can't have too much equipment approach"?
Currently I'm very happy with this approach. It works for me.

 

[Thymallus]

I would call my bees near native, the discoidal shift is well down into the minus, and they are very dark and good natured.
I can attempt to control the drone line in my apiary due to isolation, and the way and times in which native bees tend to mate, and of course by drone flooding.

That is one massive herring you have there, must be a good lens to get such a massive depth of field !

James

Near native is still hybrid.....
No depth of field required for the herring.

Regional differences shouldn't be ignored. I think they happen to be quite important. The balmy sarth is lot different than than the North of England and I think differences in how our bees behave in these different climates may be very important, I'd be very happy to see how yours do up here....hell they may surpass the ones I use at present. One thing I can almost guarantee though is two or three generations breeding with the local drones they will end up like the local dross that most people in this region accept as the norm.

 

[madasafish]

I had my doubts about bibba too, but since attending the conference in llangollen last September, http://bibba.com/conference_2014.php , I realise it's about self empowerment rather than some measly sense of entitlement.
You're only knocking it because you're jealous, don't be, I'm sure you'd be welcome if you wanted to join in

Me ? Jealous?

perish the thought..

 

[Thymallus]

my sister, although in a slightly different area seems to have some good years and a lot of not so good years with her "ferrari" bees.
James

I think honey yields in themselves can be quite misleading if you are trying to compare two different areas. Two years ago a friend of mine had poor yields, I had good yields yet we only live a short drive from each other and both of us keep formula 1 bees.
The answer (we think retrospectively) was in the soil types, I'm on clay, heavy with good moisture retention, he is on sandstone/Limestone and the area is well drained. That hot summer his flora weren't getting enough water to yield high nectar levels, almost drought conditions, mine were.

I thought the only way was direct comparison, which I've been doing for the last few years with a very one sided result to date......apart from this years heather crop, where on the face of it the formula one raced ahead.....until I lifted the brood boxes, to find theirs were very light....an added complication here was these guys were in poly and they still had lots of brood......possibly why their supers were ful. Whereas me local scallywags brood boxes were really heavy and crammed full of heather honey and possibly why the supers in some (not all) were on the light side, these mongrels had little brood and were in wooden hives.....so who did bring in the most heather honey......??? As I didn't weight the total weight I'm not quite sure.....although the amount I harvested was very one sided.
I'll see how it goes next season where I might be able to control the experiment a little better.

What I'm trying to say in a rather long winded way is that honey yields from different areas can be misleading and so can direct comparison until you factor everything in......scales for me next season to weight total before and after taking to heather. both types in poly and wood.

 

[Apple]

I have also in past years compared my local Native bees to a ( Danish imported ligurian/carniolian queen) hybrid colony.

In same apiary in WBCs hives, facing in same direction ( back to prevailing wind within a sunny and sheltered site)
The Local Native bees thrived as expected, the imported bees produced a lot of brood quickly, and a lot of stores, which they then ate, needed to be fed at the seasons end, and had a massive Varroa drop when treated with Apiguard.
Admittedly the Native bees only produced a surplus of 25kg honey from that colony, but did not need much in the way of sugar feed, and barely any Varroa.
BUT the following Spring the Natives were ready to go again, the hybrid had dwindled down to 3 frames, I put them in a nuc and gave them to my sister.

It would appear that we are in agreement that the local bee ( whatever sub that may bee) is the best fit for purpose!
In my case it is the Native English Black bee!

Possibly the argument should be for Beekeeping Improvement ?


James

 

[Thymallus]

No disrespect intended, but there is no such thing as a native black bee in the UK, isolated inbred scottish island bees excepted. We breed mongrels and promote this.

 

[mbc]

No disrespect intended, but there is no such thing as a native black bee in the UK, isolated inbred scottish island bees excepted. We breed mongrels and promote this.

Mun, there's native bees in most areas of the British Isles, if you want to argue that their purity has in most parts been severely diluted, then you're not wrong, but here they stand, and if you wish to deny that, then you're pursuing an odd agenda.

 

[Apple]

No disrespect intended, but there is no such thing as a native black bee in the UK, isolated inbred scottish island bees excepted. We breed mongrels and promote this.

Many it would seem would disagree with your rash dictum!

This is why perhaps some may refer to Near Native Bees in this respect.
My bees show more of the characteristics associated with Amm than of say Ligurian or Carniolian or the hybridisations between them.

Very little yellow banded colouration, fly in wetter and windier conditions, forage well in Temperate Maritime conditions,overwinter with moderate stores, calm on the comb, do not follow or show aggressive or defensive behaviors, and so on.

Must admit I am not keen on the use of the term "mongrel", I prefer hybrid, as that denotes a selected cross of sub species, and perhaps better understood by the science community.
The uncontrolled introgression between honeybee sub species seems to be something that should be avoided.

My sister keeps hybrid bees and really does well with them, I do not personally have any problems with that.

However it seem once again that we are being diverted from the OP, which was to announce a event where beekeepers with an interest in improving their stocks of Native ( or near native !) bees could meet and exchange ideas with beekeepers with a similar interest.

Q.E.D.


James

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Many it would seem would disagree with your rash dictum!

And there's nothing worse than a rash on your dictum

 

[Apple]

And there's nothing worse than a rash on your dictum

Have not had such a problem since I have taken to wearing the Kilt !


James

 

[mbc]

Have not had such a problem since I have taken to wearing the Kilt !


James

Isn't there another black bee man down that way called James, and he's Kilty?

 

[Thymallus]

Many it would seem would disagree with your rash dictum

Must admit I am not keen on the use of the term "mongrel", I prefer hybrid, as that denotes a selected cross of sub species, and perhaps better understood by the science community.
The uncontrolled introgression between honeybee sub species seems to be something that should be avoided.

diverted from the OP, which was to announce a event where beekeepers with an interest in improving their stocks of Native ( or near native !) bees could meet and exchange ideas with beekeepers with a similar interest.

Q.E.D.


James

Mongrel is defined as any animal resulting from the crossing of different breeds or types....sums up most of our local bees perfectly. Barstewards is another term often used to sum up the usual breeding in the UK where no-one is quite sure who their fathers are....and you have meetings to discuss breeding mongrels......good luck.

 

[mbc]

....and you have meetings to discuss breeding mongrels......good luck.

You are either ignorant of the facts or a flaming troll.
Were you aware that the carnica bees bred for decades on isolated islands in Germany have some amm mitochondrial dna?
Just what non-existent standards of racial purity are you demanding native bee enthusiasts should have before you think we should have meetings to improve our bees? or do you think we should jack our efforts in and borrow the good breeding work of our continental neighbours, which they have done with their bees for their conditions, without us having to do any leg work in breeding our own for our own conditions?
I'm struggling to see what you gain by criticising beekeepers who are actually trying to cooperatively improve their stock.

 

[Apple]

Isn't there another black bee man down that way called James, and he's Kilty?

Yes, he is a wonderful chap, have met him on many occasions, but I must admit he would be more likely to don an orange robe than the kilt!

mine of course is black


James

 

[DanBee]

do you think we should jack our efforts in and borrow the good breeding work of our continental neighbours, which they have done with their bees for their conditions, without us having to do any leg work in breeding our own for our own conditions?

Perhaps Buckfasts are the answer then, and Bro Adam will come to be regarded as a pioneer in breeding "locally adapted" bees...?

I'm always puzzled when people appear to consider that Buckfasts were not bred for UK conditions. It's a small village on the edge of Dartmoor, not Hawaii

Current weather looks typical.