Bee's on Country File

[nantmoel]

For the second time in two week there has been an article on BBC's country file and the effect of 'Neonicotinoids' on bees, especially OSR.

 

[enrico]

I hope they test the honey that is produced as well as looking at the health of the bees.....seemed quite a fair report to me
E

 

[nantmoel]

I hope they test the honey that is produced as well as looking at the health of the bees.....seemed quite a fair report to me
E

Hmmm no honey tasting yet! I agree with you is was a fair report. I need to find OSR growers in my part of Wales.

 

[dpearce4]

I know that the farmers down here that produce OSR wont be bothering to next year, even one of the biggest single estate rape seed oil sellers is sowing less due to the poor crops over the last 2 years. I wont be getting a spring crop due to this next year.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I wont be getting a spring crop due to this next year.

Does nothing else grow in your area to give a spring crop, apart from oilseed rape? get a good spring crop here usually, without there being any oilseed rape at all.

 

[nantmoel]

Does nothing else grow in your area to give a spring crop, apart from oilseed rape? get a good spring crop here usually, without there being any oilseed rape at all.

I live in the Valleys so as far as farming is concerned its all sheep, no crops at all.

 

[dpearce4]

nope not that gives us the quantities that OSR does. if the fields are right next to the hives then the crop is fantastic, the farm was growing about 100acres each year and gone to wheat instead.

there are few wild flowers or hedgerows that produce anything of quantity. In the part of Devon your in you are very lucky I have been there many times and admired the amount of wildlife you have.

One of our local farms has gone over to pig production so nothing at all grows there.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

I know that the farmers down here that produce OSR wont be bothering to next year, even one of the biggest single estate rape seed oil sellers is sowing less due to the poor crops over the last 2 years. I wont be getting a spring crop due to this next year.

I suspect that the poor crops over the last two years have nothing to do with the Neonic ban. The 2014 crop was sowed before the ban came in, so probably had Neonics on its seed and if the land had had several crops of Neonic-dusted seed prior to this, the persistent nature of the chemicals means that the landowner could carry on sowing untreated seed and still get the alleged benefits of Neonics as the growing seedlings will use the chemicals already in the soil.

Some work has been done on the effects of Neonics on land-based insects such as honey and bumble bees but what happens when these chemicals get leached into watercourses. Are water insects being killed or otherwise effected and will this/has this resulted in a reduction of the numbers of fish in rivers.

We must remember that Neonics were brought to the market by the same industry that gave us DDT, which nearly wiped out out birds of prey before it was banned. We must be very vigilant in trying to ensure that the agro-chemicals industry does not destroy the countryside of this country - or anywhere else, for that matter. Let us not forget those areas of China where all fruit pollination has to be done by hand because all insects have been wiped out by the ill-advised use of insecticides.

CVB

 

[dpearce4]

to me they are less damaging to my bees than a farmer spraying the crop when in flower and not telling me and my bees being wiped out that way. I have not had one colony killed by my bees going onto OSR. I have had colonies killed by farmers (well their contractors) doing the other, as have other beekeepers that are not able to keep their bees in an urban environment.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I live in the Valleys so as far as farming is concerned its all sheep, no crops at all.

Don't you have blackthorn, hawthorn, dandelion,clover,brambles, heather,balsam?
Last arablr crop I remember in this area was when my uncle Todur put quarter of an acre down to spuds back in the 1970's - still manage to get a bit of honey every year

 

[TOBY-3652]

loads of osr is grown around here. and I have never had a issue with losses yet. the farmers around here have had the best yield for years aver 2 tonne per acre and some have done 2 and half.. wheat averaging 4.8 tonnes and 1 farmer said he had 6 tonne of wheat off 1 field. more osr grown next year here.

 

[Dadnlad]

Was chatting to a farmer in the next village today, who drilled non neonic rape last autumn but due to horrendous losses subsequently redrilled with oats as his break crop. Result - a wheat/oats desert for bees this year

He'll be doing the same this autumn as rape is too expensive to treat without neonics and other break crops (beans) too expensive to keep weed free

So pointless me putting my bees anywhere on his land for the forseeable

 

[nantmoel]

Don't you have blackthorn, hawthorn, dandelion,clover,brambles, heather,balsam?
Last arablr crop I remember in this area was when my uncle Todur put quarter of an acre down to spuds back in the 1970's - still manage to get a bit of honey every year

Yes have all those.

 

[Thymallus]

the persistent nature of the chemicals means that the landowner could carry on sowing untreated seed and still get the alleged benefits of Neonics as the growing seedlings will use the chemicals already in the soil.

Nope it doesn't work like that, nowhere near as efficient for take up. Apparently seeds treated with it only take up 4% and that's when they and their root system are growing in a concentrated area of the pesticide.

Some work has been done on the effects of Neonics on land-based insects such as honey and bumble bees but what happens when these chemicals get leached into watercourses. Are water insects being killed or otherwise effected and will this/has this resulted in a reduction of the numbers of fish in rivers.

Aquatic invertebrates, in general are fine. Rivers are thriving.

I posed a question on another thread , but no-one was prepared to answer.
It went something along the lines of what do you get if you ban Neonics....I think you will go back to spraying with organophosphates, pyrethroids. Chemicals that kill of ALL insects sprayed. These also persist in the environment.. I think it's question that should be considered. Insecticides are bad for insects (bleeding obvious inn'it), but what are the most acceptable pesticides we can live with as bee keepers. Alas, non is not going to be the answer.
Ideally we would use no pesticides, but economics is dictating otherwise.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Think this thread could be heading towards the cupboard under the stairs shortly

 

[Thymallus]

Point taken!

 

[pargyle]

Ideally we would use no pesticides, but economics is dictating otherwise.

I'm not sure that it's economics that drive some of these issues (at least not directly). The major supermarkets and the firms who pack for them put tremendous pressure on the growers (and farmers in general) for produce that is both perfect and cheap ..

I grow a lot of my own and I don't use pesticides or other chemicals for that matter ... I always have surplus crops and after the freezer has taken it's share I give a lot of produce away. I find that people remark about how different my home grown fruit and veg taste and they don't mind the mis-shapes and the odd eaten leaf but appreciate the fact that this produce is as naturally grown as is possible. Yes, I have losses .. a hole in the netting and I lost all my cauliflowers to cabbage whites in a matter of days ...but had I noticed I would have sorted it by picking off the eggs/caterpillars before it got to the stage where the leaves had gone.

A fairer price for the farmers and consumers who understand that all fruit and veg grown are not going to be the same size and shape and perhaps we have a starting point for chemical free farming ?

So .. I know OSR is not a food crop per-se but if we can't grow it without resort to any pesticides then perhaps we should not be growing it. It's a cash crop not a food crop.

 

[Ely]

It is also about supplying a large and ever growing population. Can't do that organically for everyone unfortunately. More people could be growing their own produce in their gardens though. Rather than just growing perfectly green manicured grass complete with weed killer. That is no good for anything.

 

[Tremyfro]

It may have changed but when I was involved in farming.....companies had a contract with the farmers to produce....say OSR.....they supplied the seed. Told the farmers what and when to spray. Then collected the crop after harvest. They gave the farmer a price for doing the job for them and paid them whatever per tonne. They offered advice on all aspects of growing the crop. So I have always felt a little sorry for farmers being blamed.

 

[Plenty of honey]

I Think every beekeeper is educated enough to understand all the issues here. I posted this nearly 2 yeas ago on a nature site when they first introduced a ban on neonics here in France and I quote .....

"Well, the European Union have banned these pesticides. I was wonderng what most people think of this?
Personally, I am in two minds about this. I have worked in the horticultural industry for a large part of my life. When I started, we had an infestation of western flower thrip( at the time a notifiable pest).We had to treat it with organophosphorus chemicals, some of them really nasty and most of which have now been banned and it highlights just how far we have come in pest control and integrated pest management of edible and non edible crops, However these neonicotinoid pesticides do actually work very effectively and usually one treatment on the seed coating means the chemical acts systemically in the plant during its growth to flowering , so yes thats why we are all so concerned as beekeepers! But in reality does this mean that far from reducing the amount of chemicals in the environment. Are farmers and growers now going to turn back the clock and take to using a cocktail of not quite so effective pesticides, that will, in turn cause build up of resistance within the target pest!
It will certainly mean more exposure to our bees but the big question is, was the neonicotinoid pesticides doing something more to our native bees than our previous chemicals were. Time will tell and I do hope we see a rise in the number of wild colonies of all our other bumble bees, etc to name but a few.
(End of quote)

So, the ban is due to be lifted here jan1st 2016 which means that rape will still be neonic free when it grows next spring. I really hope they have made some serious investigation in to whether it's better, worse or similar in effect to treating with other pyrethrums bases insecticides.
Personally. What happened to the GM option?? Wouldn't it be not be a "much safer "gamble" to have plants pest and disease resistant and we wouldn't have to expose anyone or any thing to these chemicals. Surely they would rule out any doubts!!!!
One thing the French have done is banned the spraying of all flowering crops during daylight hours!! Common sense at last!!