BeeBreed News announced 15/02/2017

[Beefriendly]

It would interesting to see what they say to the this bit.

The reasons for selecting a particular queen as breeding material are required.

When you reply because these were identified as the best breeding lines to use by Breeder X on an Island mating station somewhere in the Scandinavian archipelago. After that they just go downhill when open mated with the local drones.

 

[B+.]

It would interesting to see what they say to the this bit.

When you reply because these were identified as the best breeding lines to use by Breeder X on an Island mating station somewhere in the Scandinavian archipelago. After that they just go downhill when open mated with the local drones.

Something like this (taken directly from www.Beebreed.eu) ?

Breeding Class Requirements

According to and in addition to the breeding guidelines of the German Beekeepers Association.
The following has been determined::
Class Av (*):
2 Varroa criteria assessed
Varroa index over 100%
2 customary breeding values over 100%
2 customary breeding values not below 95%
6 sibling colonies or at least 0.38 certainty of all customary breeding values
At least three generations have been bred, or all relevant traits and performance can be documented
Physical features of workers and drones are typical for the breed
Class A:
All 4 customary breeding values are over 100%
6 sibling colonies or at least 0.38 certainty of all customary breeding values
At least three generations have been bred, or all relevant traits and performance can be documented
Physical features of workers and drones are typical for the breed
Class B:
The average of all breeding values is greater 100%
6 sibling colonies or at least 0.38 certainty of all customary breeding values
At least three generations have been bred, or all relevant traits and performance can be documented
Physical features of workers and drones are typical for the breed
Class P:
Requirements below those for Class B
Physical features of workers and drones are typical for the breed
Use only for breeding tests; offspring of these colonies should not mate.
Class D:
Selection for drone colony breeding is appropriate if:
The mother colony has been bred and
The traits correspond to the standard of the breeding population
The representatives are responsible for the accuracy of queens' recorded breeding classes.
(*) Special Note: When printing the breeding certificate (online), "v" is automatically added to breeding class A when both Varroa criteria have been assessed and the Varroa index is over 100%.

Of course they will deteriorate to the mean for the area with each passing generation....if I did nothing about it. But, this is supposed to be a breeders certificate...surely, they would want to see some evidence of selective processes and controlled mating/insemination?

 

[Beefriendly]

surely, they would want to see some evidence of selective processes and controlled mating/insemination?

Probably, but controlled mating or II, little chance of that for the average Jo.
I'm not sure how you would select to improve a line that is going rapidly downhill due to mixing with local drones. Apart from making sure the virgins never got anywhere near them.
Errr I selected the best of a bad bunch and bred three generations and ended up with these "not fit for purpose" bees in order to satisfy the BBKA requirements to get a certificate.
Whilst I can admire what the BBKA tries to achieve with their educational packages I think this is a step in the wrong direction as it shows little understanding of the reality of current beekeeping.
To my mind it is a part of the brainwash into ensuring everyone thinks local mongrels are the best and olny bee to use for everything. And anything "foreign" from abroad (or UK) is bad.
What they could be doing is educating people about the various options and strains of bees that are available so they can chose a strain that might suit their own needs as a beekeeper. Rather than the one fits all....

 

[B+.]

To my mind it is a part of the brainwash into ensuring everyone thinks local mongrels are the best and olny bee to use for everything. And anything "foreign" from abroad (or UK) is bad.

I'll let you know what happens. Who knows, there may be a more open-minded view of how things could be....I live in hope!
Perhaps, if I just showed them an apiary of open mated queens and kept quiet about my other apiaries, they'd be satisfied....although, I doubt it.

 

[B+.]

I'm not sure how you would select to improve a line that is going rapidly downhill due to mixing with local drones. Apart from making sure the virgins never got anywhere near them..

You could send them to an island mating station or invest in an instrumental insemination kit.

 

[Beefriendly]

You could send them to an island mating station or invest in an instrumental insemination kit.

I could, but those dedicated breeders of queen bees have a living to make.

 

[B+.]

I could, but those dedicated breeders of queen bees have a living to make.

 

[beebreeder]

I have just read this thread with interest and am glad you dropped the last comment in, the time you spend on records and paperwork must make it far more difficult to make a living from it

 

[For want of a better word]

I have just read this thread with interest and am glad you dropped the last comment in, the time you spend on records and paperwork must make it far more difficult to make a living from it

Possibly bee improvement ... rather than just demonstrating rigid record keeping and selecting bees because of the record card......
That is too much like Cooper for those (?) who are devotees of Hooper!



Nos da

 

[B+.]

Possibly bee improvement ... rather than just demonstrating rigid record keeping and selecting bees because of the record card......
That is too much like Cooper for those (?) who are devotees of Hooper!

I'm not sure how you could measure progress without good records Icanhopit.

I used to manage large strategic change programmes and learned the value of documenting the "current state" in any change management situation. Without this, you can't plan for the desired "future state" in a DMAIC (Designed, measured (or managed), analysed, improved and controlled) programme.

Good record keeping is fundamental.

 

[Finman]

I'm not sure how you could measure progress without good records Icanhopit.

Good record keeping is fundamental.

I do not need Records. Records do not bring honey.
Records can only mislead you. You seldom know from where bees get the yield.

I have told many times that in different sites the yield can be easily 3 fold even if the hives are exactly as good.


Mostly hybrids are the best and strongest.

Every year is different. If you have a queen, the best queen can be an average queen next year.

Pastures give the yield not hives.

Fundamentals are

- good queens
- big hives
- evaluation of good pastures

When you have a big hive, you just put them in good pastures, where nectar is very near, and then the record happens.

Records:
- the queen is not the same
- pastures are not the same
- the year is not the same

Only which is same is sun shine angle
.

 

[B+.]

I do not need Records. Records do not bring honey.
Records can only mislead you. You seldom know from where bees get the yield.

Mostly hybrids are the best and strongest.

Every year is different. If you have a queen, the best queen can be an average queen next year.

Pastures give the yield not hives.

Fundamentals are

- good queens
- big hives
- evaluation of good pastures

We're going to have to disagree on that Finman....but, you do it your way, I'll do it mine.

Forage is important to honey yield, but its only half the picture. You can move your bees to good forage areas, but, you can't really control it. You may be able to influence it a little, but not substantially (unless you own a great deal of land).
IMO good queens come from good breeding and care over the development cycle. You may get a fluke where a good queen pops up by accident during random mating, but, for consistent, predictable, above average results, you have to select a well bred queen. Even you buy in queens. You have said so yourself. I make no secret of the fact that I test groups of queens and raise daughters from the best.
I wouldn't know which queens were the best unless I gathered the data upon which to make that decision...as a man with a scientific background, you must agree that results are necessary to form a conclusion.
I suppose it would be possible to remember the information on a small number of colonies for a while...but this would be mere anecdotal evidence. I certainly couldn't remember in sufficient detail what happened at the start of a season by the winter time.....and how would I communicate it? I am not working alone. Others need to see the results of my testing just as I need to see theirs.
I don't think anyone truly enjoys keeping records so I can understand why you decry its importance. I do it only because it is necessary.

 

[Finman]

We're going to have to disagree on that Finman....but, you do it your way, I'll do it mine.

Forage is important to honey yield, but its only half the picture. You can move your bees to good forage areas, but, you can't really control it. You may be able to influence it a little, but not substantially (unless you own a great deal of land).
IMO good queens come from good breeding and care over the development cycle. You may get a fluke where a good queen pops up by accident during random mating, but, for consistent, predictable, above average results, you have to select a well bred queen. Even you buy in queens. You have said so yourself. I make no secret of the fact that I test groups of queens and raise daughters from the best.
I wouldn't know which queens were the best unless I gathered the data upon which to make that decision...as a man with a scientific background, you must agree that results are necessary to form a conclusion.
I suppose it would be possible to remember the information on a small number of colonies for a while...but this would be mere anecdotal evidence. I certainly couldn't remember in sufficient detail what happened at the start of a season by the winter time.....and how would I communicate it? I am not working alone. Others need to see the results of my testing just as I need to see theirs.
I don't think anyone truly enjoys keeping records so I can understand why you decry its importance. I do it only because it is necessary.

You play your game and you breed mite resistant bee breeds.

It has nothing to do with honey production.


I have had splended queens 40 years. I have bought ready queens from professionals.

 

[Finman]

. You can move your bees to good forage areas, but, you can't really control it. You may be able to influence it a little.

That only tells that you do not practice pasture evaluation. You have no interest on it. You have told that you do not mind to move hives even if they have no flow on pastures.

How I can control the yield

- moving hives inside 30 km radius

- number of hive in one site. If one hive cleans the flowers, do not put more. 4 hives in best site is maximum.

- evaluation of best nectar vegetation inside the radius 1 km. The more plants species the more long flow: Raspberry, fireweed, summer rape,

Only with these 3 plant combination I can get 150 kg. Those places are rare.
Rape gives naximum 60 kg.
Rasberry can give 50 kg.

If bees fly with empty stomack, I move the hive away next morning. And you say that I cannot control foraging. That is exactly what I do with moving hives.

I own land 2500 m2.

 

[Finman]

.
Foraging power comes from the queen and yield comes from pastures

.

 

[For want of a better word]

You could send them to an island mating station or invest in an instrumental insemination kit.

And in that situation meaningful records would compliment your efforts... which is exactly the way we have been undertaking bee improvement.

Unfortunately there are no isolated islands ... even the Scillies has been contaminated by mis conceived imports of non native bees....

We have created our own "island" by massive drone flooding of an area devoid of non native bees ( Thank you to Dutchy and National Trust and other large and small landownwers)

Finmann is totally correct... good bees AND good forage are essential


Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

That only tells that you do not practice pasture evaluation. You have no interest on it. You have told that you do not mind to move hives even if they have no flow on pastures.
.

Thats not true Finman. I work with the Farm manager to decide where my test apiary will be each year. This year, it will be surrounded by OSR but with a lot of hedges and mixed woodland nearby. There will also be Field beans too.

There is a relationship between the genetics and the environment. I can't control the environment though. I can only provide the best that is there...so its a variable. The only "constant" that I can work with is the genetic component. Of course, it isn't really constant but you can only change one variable at a time...ask any doctor about changing one part of your medication and see what he says. I had this experience recently when I wanted to change the antihistamine I take as part of my asthma medication.

Changing the test site part way through the year is an interesting point. The yield recorded must reflect the environment it was produced in. If I moved the test group to a different location (e.g. heather), I would have to move the whole test group together and record the yield from it against the new site.

 

[Beefriendly]

Memory is a fickle beast so records can be very important.
More important is what you keep records of.
You can only compare, for example, honey yields from hives in the same apiary from colonies of equivalent strength. Although if one of your weaker colonies outperforms the others, it's worth noting.

 

[alldigging]

From Feb BBKA news:

New Certificate in
Honey Bee Breeding
Due to popular demand, the BBKA
Examinations Board is looking to pilot
in 2017 a new certificate in honey bee
breeding, with the aim of making it
available to all members from 2018. e
aim is to encourage the development of
skills and knowledge in the selective
breeding of honey bees and the advance
of bees that are adapted to the local
conditions and have desirable
characteristics. Individual members or
queen breeding groups are invited to step
forward and take part in the trialling stage
of this certificate. More information on
page 60.

P60 says:
Bee Breeding
By Marin Anastasov, Master Beekeeper, Exam Board and Gloucestershire BKA
The focus on locally produced queens will increase in future
and, in recognition of this, the BBKA Examination Board
is working towards the launch of a new certificate that will
complement the current portfolio of practical assessments. e
aim of the ‘Certificate in Honey Bee Breeding’ is to encourage an
improvement in the skills and methodology applied to the
selective breeding of honey bees that are adapted to the local
conditions and have desirable characteristics. Candidates taking
this assessment will have the opportunity to demonstrate a range
of beekeeping skills related to honey bee breeding and selection. It
is important to note at this stage that, while queen rearing will
form an integral part of the certificate, the aim is to cover the
stepping stones in the wider concept applicable to the honey bee
breeding and selection.
Who can enter?
The Certificate in Honey Bee Breeding will be open to individuals
who are passionate about selection and breeding of honey bees,
and to bee breeding groups that may consist of several members.
Candidates will need to hold the BBKA Basic Certificate, to have
kept bees for a set period of time and to have available a number of
productive colonies in the year they wish to take this assessment.
Here are four parts to the assessment:
Part 1. Here the candidate will discuss with the assessors some of
the practical aspects of their beekeeping that relate to the selection
and breeding of their bees. ese may include the progress and
performance of the colonies throughout the year, the local
conditions that influence the selection criteria or the methods
used for progeny assessment of their breeder queens.
Part 2. In this section the candidate will be asked to demonstrate a
number of tasks such as an objective method for assessing a colony
for defensive behaviour, a method to assess the level of inbreeding
in a colony, or to set up a mating nucleus for the introduction of a
virgin queen or a ripe queen cell.
Part 3. This comprises a review of the candidate’s records, with
detail related particularly to those colonies used in the breeding
programme for a minimum of three years. ese need also to
include pedigrees of the breeder queens and should reflect the
criteria used for selection.
Part 4. This section is an oral discussion that covers the theoretical
aspects of selection and breeding, such as advantages and
disadvantages of inbreeding and heterosis, the interactions of
genes and the environment or, perhaps, setting up a standardised
colony for progeny assessment.
What next?
The Examinations Board will pilot this certificate in 2017 with a
very limited number of candidates, with the aim of making it
available to all eligible BBKA members in 2018. If you or your bee
breeders group are interested in taking part in launching this
certificate, please contact Val Francis, Examinations Board
secretary, who will register your interest and advise on the next
steps.
"If you interested in and eligible
to take part in the pilot phase of
the Certificate in Honey Bee
Breeding assessment please notify
Val Francis."

 

[B+.]

Memory is a fickle beast so records can be very important.
More important is what you keep records of.
You can only compare, for example, honey yields from hives in the same apiary from colonies of equivalent strength. Although if one of your weaker colonies outperforms the others, it's worth noting.

Absolutely....but not quite (if that makes sense).
Its the equivalent strength part I would disagree with. I want to differentiate between sisters that are mated to the same group of drones....so if one performs better than another (early in the spring or later in the summer), this is exactly the sort of information I want to know. I can then recommend a line that develops earlier for OSR or later for heather. Does that make sense?
Are we saying the same thing?