Bailey change confusion???

[BeeJayBee]

Just found the Defra leaflet titled " Feeding Bees Sugar, best practice".

(don't know how to link this, sorry)

Think I'll change the feed just in case, although it's been so cold lately I doubt they have touched it anyway.........

Don't worry too much because you'd probably have noticed if something was wrong. They're flying, so have been collecting food, and you've seen no signs of dysentery.

For next time ... It doesn't matter if it's cane or beet sugar, but it's best to use only white granulated sugar - not raw, and not unrefined 'off-white', granulated sugar because both contain impurities (plant solids) that can disagree with the bees' digestive system, more especially if that's their sole source of food.

You could probably use caster sugar if that's all you've got, but commercially produced icing sugar almost always contains an 'anti-caking agent' that will have a similar effect on the bees.

The same with fondant. It should be Bakers' Fondant, which contains only sugar, glucose and water. Beekeepers shouldn't use Fondant Icing because it contains other stuff that is no good to the bees and they may even refuse to eat it.

You could play very safe and buy commercially produced feeds, but they're much more expensive.

Do you mean this leaflet? https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/beebase/downloadDocument.cfm?id=741 (right click -> copy link location -> paste into post)

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Thanks MM.
I have just read and re-read the linked PDF and the conclusion that I would reach is that the sugar in 1:1 that I have fed my bees is OK as it is refined cane sugar. Not unrefined brown sugar.
Would you agree?
Or should I change it for "silver spoon" white beet sugar and water?

Since the largest market by far is white sugar and the UK enjoys the presence of LIDL competing with ALDI and or Farm Foods white sugar can be sourced cheaply by comparison to brown. Deals can be done with Bookers or other sources over broken bags too but I found it simpler and nearer to simply buy white sugar when it was on offer in ALDI at 75p a kilo.

 

[itma]

...
You could probably use caster sugar if that's all you've got, but commercially produced icing sugar almost always contains an 'anti-caking agent' that will have a similar effect on the bees.

The same with fondant. It should be Bakers' Fondant, which contains only sugar, glucose and water. Beekeepers shouldn't use Fondant Icing because it contains other stuff that is no good to the bees and they may even refuse to eat it.
...

Not quite true.

The 'additives' in icing sugar and plain unflavoured fondant icing don't harm the bees.
Supermarket icing sugar is regularly used by "natural" beekeepers as a dusting to increase varroa drop.
Some make fondant by mixing icing sugar with a very little water.
Similarly "queen candy" is made from icing sugar mixed with honey.
In fact the principal 'additive' in supermarket fondant icing (as opposed to commercial bakers' fondant icing) is the addition of a couple of % veg oil to keep it more pliable and more easily worked by the less skilled and less frequent baker.
As we should know, veg oil is a major constituent of pollen ...

The main reason that beekeepers would hesitate to make syrup from icing sugar is that it is much much more expensive than granulated!
Similarly, supermarket fondant in small packs is much more expensive - per kilo - than bulk packs of bakers' fondant.


Icing sugar and plain supermarket fondant will not harm the bees, just your pocket!
However, brown or 'golden' sugars are considered to be bad for bees.
And nowadays, beet or cane makes not a jot of difference, as long as it is white.
However, some elderly beekeepers will still cling to, and even spread, what was out-of-date advice when they were learning. (And not only about sugar ...)

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have been feeding with brown cane sugar because I was advised to use it by the chap that I brought my hives from.
He says that he would use brown cane over white beet any day.

Only one word needed there - EEJIT. Luckily it wasn't winter stores you were feeding them, not your fault, you were just given very bad advice.
Follow Itma's advice - forget about the brown being refined or not - bog standard white sugar - either beet or cane (whatever is on sale and cheapest when you buy) later you can look at the benefits or not of using using ready made invert syrups (no point in discussing pre-mixed standard syrup as it's just another expensive con)

 

[BeeJayBee]

The fondant I buy from a local baker, and supplied by Kluman & Balter (kaybeefoods), contains sugar, water and glycerin. The glycerin is to stop the mixture drying out.

In fact the principal 'additive' in supermarket fondant icing (as opposed to commercial bakers' fondant icing) is the addition of a couple of % veg oil to keep it more pliable and more easily worked by the less skilled and less frequent baker.

That might be the case with some products but, as an example, Asda and Tesco sell mixtures containing a lot more than just veg oil.

Tesco
Fondant Icing (Ready Ice)
http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=250535664
Sugar,Glucose Syrup ,Palm Oil ,Water ,Humectant (Glycerine) ,Emulsifier (Mono- and Di-Glycerides of Fatty Acids) ,Stabilisers (Xanthan Gum, Cellulose) ,Preservative (Potassium Sorbate) ,Flavouring

Asda Ready to Roll Fondant Icing
http://groceries.asda.com/asda-webstore/landing/home.shtml#/product/481847
[Sugar, Glucose Syrup, Water, Vegetable Oil, Humectant (vegetable Glycerol), Emulsifier (Mono and Diglycerides of Fatty Acids), Acidity Regulators (Sodium Acetates, Acetic Acid), Stabiliser (Tragacanth), Natural Flavouring]

Nothing else has been said in this thread about dusting for varroa, it was about feeding bees, but since you mentioned it and it's loosely connected because bees will eat some of the powdered sugar that's sprinkled on them ....

Anti-caking agents (including those used in icing sugar) are dessicants, and include Tricalcium phosphate, which is added to flour to kill insect pests, and Sodium aluminosilicate which can cause a reaction in humans that are sensitive to aluminium. Why would we feed these substances to our bees and, if minute quantities of icides can harm bees, why should we presume that a product designed for human consumption (consumed in fairly small quantities relating to our body size) is safe to use on tiny honey bees? Most of the truly 'natural' beekeepers I know make their own powdered sugar using an electric grinder, they don't use commercially produced icing sugar for dusting.

In this country beekeepers are advised to Avoid feeding honey although it can be returned to the colony that produced it. Do many beekeepers still make, and use, queen candy?

 

[alanf]

The fondant I buy from a local baker, and supplied by Kluman & Balter (kaybeefoods), contains sugar, water and glycerin. The glycerin is to stop the mixture drying out.

Are you sure? The K&B fondant I have contains only sugar, glucose and water.

Bakers fondant is made by mechanically pulverising white sugar (sucrose) and mixing it to a paste with glucose syrup. There is glycerine (aka glycerin or glycerol) in some supermarket packet icing to extend the shelf life/workability, but not in bakers fondant.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Do many beekeepers still make, and use, queen candy?

Yes, quite a lot of it.

 

[itma]

The fondant I buy from a local baker, and supplied by Kluman & Balter (kaybeefoods), contains sugar, water and glycerin. The glycerin is to stop the mixture drying out.
...
That might be the case with some products but, as an example, Asda and Tesco sell mixtures containing a lot more than just veg oil.

Tesco
Fondant Icing (Ready Ice)
http://www.tesco.com/groceries/Product/Details/?id=250535664
Sugar,Glucose Syrup ,Palm Oil ,Water ,Humectant (Glycerine) ,Emulsifier (Mono- and Di-Glycerides of Fatty Acids) ,Stabilisers (Xanthan Gum, Cellulose) ,Preservative (Potassium Sorbate) ,Flavouring

Asda Ready to Roll Fondant Icing
http://groceries.asda.com/asda-webstore/landing/home.shtml#/product/481847
[Sugar, Glucose Syrup, Water, Vegetable Oil, Humectant (vegetable Glycerol), Emulsifier (Mono and Diglycerides of Fatty Acids), Acidity Regulators (Sodium Acetates, Acetic Acid), Stabiliser (Tragacanth), Natural Flavouring]
...

I think you are being needlessly worried by long words!
Your "glycerin" is Tesco's "Glycerine" and Asda's "vegetable Glycerol".
You say its to prevent drying out - that is why the supermarkets call it a "Humectant".
Veg Oils are mostly "triglycerides of fatty acids" - they have 3 carbon chains on a glycer/in/ine/ol spine. Take off one of those and you are left with 2 - a Diglyceride, take two off, leaving one chain attached and you have a "mono-glyceride". Veg oil minus.
Sodium Acetate and Acetic acid - salt'n'vinegar.
Tesco use Xanthan (made from sugar) and cellulose ("fibre") while Asda use Tragacanth (dried tree gum - anything like prop?) as "stabilisers".
Sorbic acid was first isolated from Rowan berries (hence the name). Neutralise the acid and you have the salt - potassium sorbate. Its an excellent yeast killer, preventing fermentation.

To make the product softer, for the home baker, they are adding (additives!) a bit of glycerine and oil, then to hold those a little emulsifier to bind them, a pinch of stabiliser to keep the emulsion emulsified and to preserve it, Tesco use a product related to Rowan berries, and Asda just slightly acidify it.
And it does the bees no harm at all.
Don't take my word for it. But please accept the word of Terry Clare, past President of BIBBA, and Q-rearing expert - who is perfectly happy to use supermarket fondant for feeding mating nucs. (Come to Dover this Saturday and ask him yourself!)

Really, there is a lot of cr@p talked about food additives, largely I must say by americans who have been allowed access to a computer.
There are a few nasties used in America as food additives (such as Potassium Bromate - used in bread flour in many US States, but long since banned here).
But these fondant pliability additions aren't going to harm you - or your bees.

 

[Swarm]

I think you are being needlessly worried by long words!

And I think maybe an apology for being so rudely condescending?

 

[BeeJayBee]

Yes, quite a lot of it.

Do you use honey and sugar to make it?

Are you sure? The K&B fondant I have contains only sugar, glucose and water.

No - I lied! Apologies.

I've checked again and it does indeed say glucose on the box. I somehow managed to change the word to glycerin while I was returning to the house. Maybe I should have written it down on a piece of paper. Somebody else did that once, with the time [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tjHlFPTwVk"]YouTube - The Goon Show - What Time Is It Eccles -.Flv - YouTube[/ame]

And I think maybe an apology for being so rudely condescending?

No worries Swarm, it isn't the first time I've been talked down to and I doubt it'll be the last.

Maybe I'm content to swell the ranks of the other groups previously disparaged, such as "elderly beekeepers [who] still cling to, and even spread, what was out-of-date advice when they were learning" or the "americans who shouldn't be allowed access to the computer".

Xanthan (made from sugar)

Actually it isn't, although it is a polysaccharide. It's way too far off-topic to discuss how it's produced, but xanthan gum can cause serious problems for people who are allergic to the manufacturing base product. And some people prefer to give their bees food that is additive free.

If you are happy to give your bees supermarket fondant icing, and are satisfied that it's use is endorsed by others, that's fine but I think it's a little irresponsible to try to score points in a thread where a new beekeeper is asking what is the best thing to feed their bees.

If Admin or HM prefer to edit or remove either this or any of my previous posts, please feel free to do so. I hadn't imagined I had written anything earlier in the thread that would prove to be a catalyst for a public disagreement.

 

[mbc]

I hadn't imagined I had written anything earlier in the thread that would prove to be a catalyst for a public disagreement.

Catalysts for public disagreements arent necessarily a bad thing, this is a discussion forum not a back patting circle, after all.

 

[Tomo]

Well......this has turned into an interesting thread.

The people that supplied my bees said that they regularly dust their bees with icing sugar, and the drop is close to zero.

Thanks very much for all of your answers.

 

[Tomo]

The OSR is now in flower here.

Would it be a good idea for me to remove the feeder (with its light brown sugar...gggrrrrrrr), and let them get on with it?

Bearing in mind that the main reason for feeding is that I wanted to help them with comb building . Will the OSR be enough to build up the combs in my Commercial BB?

Not sure how much in the way of stores they have as it's too cool (9-11 degrees c) to look at the frames.

Thanks

 

[itma]

The OSR is now in flower here.

Would it be a good idea for me to remove the feeder (with its light brown sugar...gggrrrrrrr), and let them get on with it?

Bearing in mind that the main reason for feeding is that I wanted to help them with comb building . Will the OSR be enough to build up the combs in my Commercial BB?

Not sure how much in the way of stores they have as it's too cool (9-11 degrees c) to look at the frames.

Thanks

If it is too cool for you to inspect, it is definitely too cool for OSR to be producing much nectar, even if it is in flower.
The forecast is for more warmth at the weekend, hopefully it'll be better for both inspecting and nectar flow.

Nevertheless, I would suggest that you should remove the brown-sugar syrup. Really, it is much more harmful to the bees than ever supermarket fondant or icing sugar might possibly be.

If you have at least a couple of full-combs-worth of stores in the hive, I wouldn't bother feeding. But I would put one frame of foundation between brood and stores, to get it drawn fastest.



Your main worry is likely to be that the bees run out of comb for both brooding and nectar ripening, and respond by swarming. Be very alert for this possibility since you have an incompletely drawn brood box and no drawn comb to give them.

 

[itma]

Actually {Xanthan} isn't {made from sugar}, although it is a polysaccharide. It's way too far off-topic to discuss how it's produced, but xanthan gum can cause serious problems for people who are allergic to the manufacturing base product. And some people prefer to give their bees food that is additive free.

Yes it is a "polysaccaride" (a polymer made of many repeating "saccaride" - from sugar - units) as is (for example) starch which is a similar, but less effective, thickener.

It is reportedly made by fermentation giving polymerisation of one or more sugars - such as glucose ("dextrose").

The "manufacturing base product" that some people claim to be allergic to seems to be ... gluten! Which isn't something I am going to worry about my bees reacting to!

Substance Info: (and synonyms)
Xanthan gum
Background Info:
From fermentation of a carbohydrate (e.g. dextrose from corn) with Xanthomonas campestris (a bacterium usually found on cabbage leaves). Does not change its viscosity at any temperature! Passes through digestive system unabsorbed and unmetabolized. Cannot be used for dehydrated foods intended for rehydration on ingestion.

In the U.S., there are 2 major suppliers of xanthan gum. One uses soy as the fermentation medium while the other uses wheat. Residual wheat gluten has been detected in the xanthan gum made on the wheat substrate. (Personal communication: Prof. Steve Taylor) Some caution in consumption of
xanthan gum is required where it is a direct ingredient. Xanthan has some indirect uses which may not provide high enough residues to be of much
concern.

http://www.allallergy.net/fapaidfind.cfm?cdeoc=2322

It is not something that anyone should fear would (in tiny quantities) do any harm to their bees.

 

[Tomo]

Thanks ITMA, again you have got me thinking.....
I will take the syrup off and have a good look as to the stores situation IF the weather warms up a bit, as is forecast this weekend.
I do have three drawn combs on the right size frames from my used hive, however, they are a bit past their best, and I was trying to keep the frames fresh and new for the sake of hygiene.
Would you suggest I put the three combs above the brood nest (which is in the national BB beneath my new commercial BB)? As I could do without them swarming, although I was rather hoping that giving them foundation to draw out would stop any swarming?
I imagine this would entice the queen up and hence start some frantic comb building once things warm up?
Thanks again

 

[itma]

Forgetting your move to commercial among the other distractions.

THE thing that will help bring Q up into the top box is brood.
Moving a National frame into the top box would have wrong beespace around it - which could get messy, but not catastrophic.
So, if you want to get them up fast, I'd suggest having another look for Q, and if you see her, just put her and her frame into the new box. And fit the QX between boxes. If you don't find her, move a frame of brood up, and don't fit the QX. That brood frame between foundation frames but directly above the brood in the lower box. The deeper foundation frames will make a connection between the two boxes.
And then check frequently, always prepared to insert the QX anytime you find Q in the top box ...
You may get some (probably drone) comb drawn around the national frame, but try and ignore it! Once Q is up, you can 'quickly' move that frame towards the side and eventually out and away.

And for avoidance of doubt, best to stick with the 1:1 with white sugar until either the new comb is well drawn out or the rape flow is really happening.



// If getting fed up with not spotting her, one Q-finding aid is to move the whole hive a few yards to the side (putting a new one temporarily on the original site.
Give it an hour or so (nice day is assumed) and a decent proportion of the foragers will be in the new box, and the original hive will be much less crowded - making her easier to spot.
Once you've got her, you move things back to the original spot, and shake in the bees from the temporary box.
Another hint is to enlist help - some folks are gifted and able to spot the odd one out really quickly. Even any other pair of eyes is at least double the chance of finding her!

 

[Tomo]

It really has not been warm enough to attempt looking for the queen yet.
Hopefully I will get a chance this weekend.

I have made some frame adapters for the national frames, I could use them.

What do you think of using the old combs already in commercial frames above the brood?

 

[itma]

...
What do you think of using the old combs already in commercial frames above the brood?

Not unless they have been fumigated with Acetic Acid, and then aired off.
Even then ... rather not.

 

[MuswellMetro]

i would move the nat frame to the side, i would just drop it back into the national, below the QE once i have the queen on the comercials Remove all the nat box at three weeks but keep feeding until commercial frames are drawn