Bailey change confusion???

[Tomo]

Hi,
Last Tuesday I collected my first colony . They came in a national BB. I have a new commercial BB to put them into.
I had a quick look and they were bursting out of the frames. The chap that I got them from said that they were putting food into a super already, which indicates to me that they are/have run out of space in the BB.
I made a snap decision and put my commercial BB above the national BB with a QE between the two. Then added a 1:1 cane sugar feed above the top BB (as recommended from this forum).
I have read the FERA advice about Bailey changes and have seen conflicting experience/advice on this forum.
I am trying to decide if I should:
1. remove the QE and let the queen move up by herself (as I may not be able to find her anyway).
2. close the lower entrance and open another between the two BB's once the queen is laying above.(Some on the forum say this is a bad idea?)
3. What size wood (I have 6mm, is this OK) should I use for the new entrance between BBs?
4. Would it be a good idea to use both entrances for a week then close the lower one?
Incidentally the OSR here has just come into flower so there should be a flow on soon, if the temp stays warm.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Bosleeu]

The following simple method works for me.

I would remove the QE. The bees will move up in no time and it's very likely that the Queen will be laying in the top box within less than a week.

Some move a frame or two up into the top box to "invite" the bees up into the top box (you can do this temporarily with a National frame although it's smaller than a Commercial frame, but not vice versa) but if the weather is bad and there is not enough bees the brood up there may die.

Once you are sure the Queen had moved up (they like new frames and fresh comb and she will be easier to find in the top box) put the QE between the two boxes. Feed as needed to help with comb building and brood rearing.

Three weeks later, remove the bottom box, shake the bees from it into the other box and super as needed. You should now have a pretty strong colony so keep an eye out for swarming.

Hope it works, whichever method you decide to follow.

I do this with most of my bees every year and it works really well.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

[Davelin]

1 you could do this and temporarily move couple of the national frames up as suggested

2 I make a separate entrance when replacing old dirty comb. If the comb in your lower box is fairly good you don't need to.

3 6 mm height will be fine for the entrance, I would make it about 10mm wide

4 don't leave two entrances, will only cause confusion and be harder for them to guard. You'd probably find they'd try to seal one of them up

 

[Erichalfbee]

If you're making that top entrance then you need to shut of the bottom one.
Gets bees straight to the new brood and saves them storing pollen in the bottom box.

 

[Madge]

It's still early in the season, and I would be worried about that sudden increase in the hive size in case the weather changes (it was snowing fast and furiously on my hill here in Scotland a moment ago).

As you've already added a box, I wonder whether it might not help if you add some dummies to reduce the excess space so that you end up with, say, six or eight frames in the middle of each box and the dummies to the sides. You can then remove the dummies as the bees need more space. As Davelin suggested, I would also move some of the original frames up to the top box.

Kitta

 

[Tomo]

What is slightly worrying is that I read on this forum, that on closing the lower entrance one beek said that there were about 100 bees clustered around the old entrance that perished as they couldn't find the new entrance.
With the new entrance only 6-10 inches away I thought this would not be a problem.

 

[Madge]

... one beek said that there were about 100 bees clustered around the old entrance that perished ...

I would say, there's your answer. Close the top entrance - particularly this early in the season. Don't confuse the bees just now.

I don't understand why you have two entrances at all. Doesn't the top box just fit neatly on the bottom one without an opening or entrance?

Kitta

 

[Madge]

...
I don't understand why you have two entrances at all. ...

My mistake: you have two entrances because it's a Bailey exchange - but even for that, it's too early. Follow the lion's advice (Bosleeu).

 

[itma]

What is slightly worrying is that I read on this forum, that on closing the lower entrance one beek said that there were about 100 bees clustered around the old entrance that perished as they couldn't find the new entrance.
With the new entrance only 6-10 inches away I thought this would not be a problem.

Read once more what you have written - but this time ask yourself "what is one of the things that would be likely to happen if I tried to this too early in the season, before sustained warm weather arrived?"

Also ask yourself, "why have I put a QX on, with Q in the old, bottom box?"

 

[Tomo]

The reason I initially put a QE on was as I was following the FERA Bailey change leaflet and waiting to see if they drew any comb before moving the queen up.
I have now removed the QE. Only one entrance at the bottom.
No sign of any comb yet. Last week the temp was up to 15 degrees C, but has now cooled.
I have topped up the feed and will let them get on with it now.
Too cool to be opening up.

 

[itma]

The reason I initially put a QE on was as I was following the FERA Bailey change leaflet and waiting to see if they drew any comb before moving the queen up.
I have now removed the QE. Only one entrance at the bottom.
No sign of any comb yet. Last week the temp was up to 15 degrees C, but has now cooled.
I have topped up the feed and will let them get on with it now.
Too cool to be opening up.

The QX is put in *after* Q is in the top box - to keep her there.
Not before, which would keep her out of the top box!


Incidentally, there was an earlier reference to feeding with "cane sugar" syrup.
Forget the cane bit.
A hundred years ago there might have been valid reasons for choosing not to use beet sugar. Modern (the last 50 years or so) processing leaves no reason for any such prejudices.
What matters is that the sugar is *white* sugar. (Beet or cane irrelevant as long as it is white.)
Brown sugars (from cane) disagree with the bees digestion and should never be fed to them.

 

[MuswellMetro]

My mistake: you have two entrances because it's a Bailey exchange - but even for that, it's too early. Follow the lion's advice (Bosleeu).

It may be too early in Scotland but in the SE of England then some areas are bringing in pollen and OSRape nectar ( i have half a super already) with cold nights but day times 16c+ in sheltered location ( 20c some days) , we are runing at least three weeks earlier than normal with Bees on all frames and five frames of brood , and i should think Tomo in colchester could get away with a bailey change

 

[itma]

BBC forecast daily maximum temperatures for Colchester, tomorrow to Thursday are 9/8/8/9C

So I'd suggest leaving as is, for a few days at least.
They'll be fine, but I wouldn't expect them to draw much, if any, new wax.

 

[Bosleeu]

They should move up once we get better weather. As new bees hatch in the bottom box they only have one place to go - up. When she smells new comb above her, the Queen is normally not far behind. Good luck.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

 

[MuswellMetro]

BBC forecast daily maximum temperatures for Colchester, tomorrow to Thursday are 9/8/8/9C

So I'd suggest leaving as is, for a few days at least.
They'll be fine, but I wouldn't expect them to draw much, if any, new wax.

of course your right, i should have check the forecast, just a bit too mind numb with my module exams recently to think far ahead


temp fell to plus 3c here but much lower elswhere, (London heat sink)

 

[Tomo]

Incidentally, there was an earlier reference to feeding with "cane sugar" syrup.
Forget the cane bit.
A hundred years ago there might have been valid reasons for choosing not to use beet sugar. Modern (the last 50 years or so) processing leaves no reason for any such prejudices.
What matters is that the sugar is *white* sugar. (Beet or cane irrelevant as long as it is white.)
Brown sugars (from cane) disagree with the bees digestion and should never be fed to them.[/QUOTE]
ITMA thanks for your answers, now you have me worried....I have been feeding with brown cane sugar because I was advised to use it by the chap that I brought my hives from.
He says that he would use brown cane over white beet any day.
He has 50 hives and this is what he uses.
What do I know? I'm only going by what he advised.

 

[Tomo]

To add to my previous post....

I used pale brown processed cane sugar 1:1, not raw brown sugar .

The bees are flying well and should have regular toilet breaks if required.

What do other people on this forum use?

 

[MuswellMetro]

TOMO .the advise you have been given goes against most of the Books and research, which say Unrefined or brown sugar is posion to bees, see research PDF( the cane verus beet comes from bailey reseach in the 1960 on partialy refined sugars but omit the statement thar refined sugars arethe same)

 

[Tomo]

Thanks MM.
I have just read and re-read the linked PDF and the conclusion that I would reach is that the sugar in 1:1 that I have fed my bees is OK as it is refined cane sugar. Not unrefined brown sugar.
Would you agree?
Or should I change it for "silver spoon" white beet sugar and water?

 

[Tomo]

Just found the Defra leaflet titled " Feeding Bees Sugar, best practice".

(don't know how to link this, sorry)

Think I'll change the feed just in case, although it's been so cold lately I doubt they have touched it anyway.........