Autumn/Winter feeding

[Salamagundy]

As a newbee I’ve been lurking on the forum for a while now, picking up lots of nuggets of very useful information, for which many thanks! I feel it’s now time to make my first post. Apologies if I’ve missed the answers to my questions in previous threads.

I followed the advice of my mentor and two of the books I have (Evans, Campion) about finishing feeding syrup by the end of September/beginning of October to avoid fermentation if the temperature falls. I thymolated because the Spring syrup had developed spots of mould. The bees remained active throughout October and much of November and the hives now feel very light (although this is my first season hefting so my assessment probably isn’t worth much.) I’ve put fondant on all four hives, above the crownboard. The best I could do for containers was sandwich bags, holding about 1Kg each. One hive has taken just under 1Kg over a period of two weeks, and the others less.

So now to my questions:

1. I have read today that thymolating syrup prevents not only mould but also fermentation (yeast a fungus? Doh!) Does this mean that if I thymolate, I could reasonably extend the suggested deadline of the end of September/beginning of October for finishing Autumn feeding? (I’ve noticed that a number of more experienced posters here were still feeding syrup at the end of November!) If so, how long would be sensible?

2. If my hives are now very low on supplies, as I suspect, would it be better to put larger amounts of fondant directly on top of the frames, maybe on some greaseproof paper, rather than above the crownboard in plastic bags, to give easier access to a larger number of bees?

Many thanks in advance for any advice.

Some further, more general background: I did a course this Spring run by the local beekeeping association, took delivery of two nucs in March, (last year’s queens,) was saved by the bee inspector , who just happened to visit on the day both colonies were about to swarm, subsequently lost two queens, bought another nuc with this year’s queen, which I united with one of the queenless nucs, phoned my mentor on numerous occasions for advice and have ended up with 28 lbs of very light honey (camomile, borage, Himalayan balsam?), and four reasonably strong hives. It's been a brilliant experience and I consider myself very lucky, but I know my luck has to run out soon – this Winter?!

 

[Midland Beek]

1/ The limiting factor when it comes to feeding syrup is not whether or not it will spoil - note that mould is a sign that syrup is fermenting. Bees will just not take syrup when it is cold, and with some feeders, like Ashforth, if they try to take syrup when it is too cold a lot will fall into the syrup and die. Best to get syrup off the hive when it is too cold for bees to take it.

I can see the logic of thymolating syrup so once bees take it it will not ferment in the combs. However, having moderate amounts of unsealed stores in combs is maybe not the best thing. But better to have it thymolated than not, I suppose.

2/ Put fondant on top of a crown board and the bees might only get to it on the warmest of days and when there is perhaps some flying. Put it on the frames and they will more readily work it. Some put fondant on a wire queen excluder, and inside an empty super or eke. Use thick plastic to cover the whole lot to prevent the escape of heat.

I believe there is a geezer at Stratford beekeepers who is a bit of a self-styled guru when it comes to fondant. Suggest you search internet for his writings.

 

[oliver90owner]

I followed the advice of my mentor and two of the books I have (Evans, Campion) about finishing feeding syrup by the end of September/beginning of October

First 'mistake' is following, or believing, prescribed dates. Yes aim to be ready by then, with adequate stores for winter, but if the weather is OK simply continue, and if not, so, OK, you can continue with fondant. In your first year you will obviously need to follow local advice but you can already see the problem of believing set dates!

so, how long would be sensible?

As above really - how long is a piece of string problem. Giving any dates negates the above commments. Some years it may be zilch and some (like this one) it can be several weeks.

It is good advice if the temperature actually falls - which it so obviously did'nt, this year!

So be prepared to be flexible and always have a back-up plan ie keep options open. When I started I had lots of pieces of paper with different options drawn out and that sort of showed up the dead-end options (further down the line) and allowed me to always be 'ahead of' (or at least 'up with') the game. 'What if' is always a phrase going through my mind when planning a course of action.

would it be better to put larger amounts of fondant directly on top of the frames,

As long as the bees find the fondant, they will be able to access more than enough through a feedhole. They should only need a few kgs a month at worst; that is not so many grams per day. Certainly larger amounts are required if they need it at this point in the winter season. Inside the hive does have the advantage of cluster warmth, but it depends on how you wish to operate.

Outside - is easier to monitor but requires better insulation organisation; inside - is more difficult (unless you have a transparent crownboard) to monitor, so you have to 'pile it in' as you don't want to be disturbing the crownboard every couple of weeks. Be guided by your mentor, but you will gain more from being able to see what/how they are doing rather than only finding out later.

A closer location and hive type might be good in your profile. There may even be local knowledge, on here, of your area. I'm guessing you have standard timber Nationals with solid floors? I'm more likely to be wrong about the floors than the hives!

RAB

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Whereabouts in the county are you? seems to be varying opinions on beekeeping especially in the sticks - some rather scary actually!

 

[Salamagundy]

Thanks for the advice, Midland Beek.

'Best to get syrup off the hive when it is too cold for bees to take it.'

Is there a generally accepted value for 'too cold' (with or without insulation in the roof...?)

'However, having moderate amounts of unsealed stores in combs is maybe not the best thing.'

Could you elaborate on the reasons for this?

'I believe there is a geezer at Stratford beekeepers who is a bit of a self-styled guru when it comes to fondant. Suggest you search internet for his writings.'

Thanks, found PE's page on SABKA site.

 

[Salamagundy]

Thanks for all the advice, RAB.

'First 'mistake' is following, or believing, prescribed dates.'

Thought it best to stick to established practice initially but one of the many good things about this forum is that it encourages you to view the orthodoxy from many different viewpoints.

'It is good advice if the temperature actually falls'

Same question as response to MB above: Is it possible to give a temperature below which I shouldn't feed syrup?


'Inside the hive does have the advantage of cluster warmth....Outside - is easier to monitor but requires better insulation organisation'

Might there be a greater danger of starvation through clustering away from the food source if it is above the crownboard?

'A closer location and hive type might be good in your profile.There may even be local knowledge, on here, of your area.'

Done. Jenkins Brynmair is not far away.

'I'm guessing you have standard timber Nationals with solid floors?'

Good guess! Standard National timber hives, single broodbox, but with OMF. 50mm of Kingspan insulation in the roof and 20mm polystyrene on two sides, all wrapped up in some spare roofing felt for the Winter. I did have one solid floor to start with but when I treated with Apiguard the mite drop from that hive was nearly ten times the drop from the hives with OMF. Suspect the solid floor wasn't the only factor, but even so....

 

[Arfermo]

Surely the simple answer as to when to stop feeding autumnal syrup is when the bees stop taking it. It is that simple but one has to be sure not to overload the feeder - little and often as the weather cools is axiomatic. This year the weather and feeding was necessary for longer. Last year was 'tother way round at this point in time.

 

[Salamagundy]

Thanks for the response, Jenkinsbrynmair.

Whereabouts in the county are you?

Not too far from you - on the hill behind Gelli Aur, near Penrhiwgoch and Maesybont - definitely out in the sticks!

seems to be varying opinions on beekeeping especially in the sticks - some rather scary actually!

For me that's been one of the intriguing things about what I think is a fantastic hobby - it's almost never black and white. Ask three beekeepers a question and you'll probably get at least four different answers! I just hope I don't do too much damage while I'm learning to sort the wheat from the chaff.

 

[Luminos]

Welcome to the forum, Salamagundy

 

[Salamagundy]

Thanks Afermo

'Surely the simple answer as to when to stop feeding autumnal syrup is when the bees stop taking it.'

Yes, this is what seemed to happen. All the hives had taken about 10Kg of sugar each by the beginning of October and then stopped. My mistake, I guess, was not to start feeding again when activity continued in the warm Autumn weather. There were still orientation flights two to three weeks after I'd stopped feeding but I was worried about the syrup not evaporating and then fermenting.

'little and often as the weather cools is axiomatic.'

Any general advice on degrees C?

 

[Salamagundy]

'Welcome to the forum, Salamagundy '

Merci Luminos - t'es très gentil!

 

[drstitson]

"1. I have read today that thymolating syrup prevents not only mould but also fermentation (yeast a fungus? Doh!) Does this mean that if I thymolate, I could reasonably extend the suggested deadline of the end of September/beginning of October for finishing Autumn feeding? (I’ve noticed that a number of more experienced posters here were still feeding syrup at the end of November!) If so, how long would be sensible?"

until too cold for regular bee activity - many probably like their hives to be winter ready and shut up by bonfire night. but as above, if still taking the feed...

"2. If my hives are now very low on supplies, as I suspect, would it be better to put larger amounts of fondant directly on top of the frames, maybe on some greaseproof paper, rather than above the crownboard in plastic bags, to give easier access to a larger number of bees?"

see post by PH on another thread - if hives are light NOW then skipping around the edge of the problem is not on - decent block of fondant on the frames within an eke (plus insulation around/over as necessary).

 

[Pete D]

Hi all,
just hi jacking the thread with reference to fondant above or below the crown board.
I currently have mine in either slashed cling film or inverted plastic food trays (chinese take away style) over the centre Porter bee escape hole in the crown board, above that an empty super full of loft insulation then the roof, this allows me to check the fondant without disturbing the bees.
Some have taken fondant (1 hive all of it and half the next lot) and others none at all.
I attended an O A demonstration at our local association on Saturday (actually used sugar syrup for the demos as not clustered and broodless yet) and spoke to 'experienced' members who said definantly put it on the frames, super as eke and full of insulation, then crown board and roof.
I planned to change my current method to their recomendation this weekend but now not sure again.
Maybe I will do some of each as there doesnt seem to be a definative answer to this, however its my first winter and I want to give them best chance of survival.
From the replies in the OP its 1 - 1 , I think, as in 1 reply above and 1 reply below.
Anybody care to add to the scoring before I decide my course of action.

By the way OA demo very good, had a few practice runs myself on the association hives with sugar syrup to help my judge the 5 ml per seam out of a graduated 20ml syringe. Following the demo they sold kits, jars full of solution, syringe and gloves, £2 for 3 hives, £3 for 5 -6 hives and my £5 got me enough for my dozen hives, well pleased, its good to belong !
thanks
Pete D

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Hi all,

Maybe I will do some of each as there doesnt seem to be a definative answer to this, however its my first winter and I want to give them best chance of survival.
From the replies in the OP its 1 - 1 , I think, as in 1 reply above and 1 reply below.
Anybody care to add to the scoring before I decide my course of action.

Mine coped quite well last winter with fondant over the feed holes and surrounded by insulation. to be honest I cant see that it makes it harder for the bees, and must be a lot less mucky, so 2-1

 

[Salamagundy]

Thanks Drstitson!

'until too cold for regular bee activity'

judged by what's happening in/around the hive? Or by a temperature range?

if hives are light NOW then skipping around the edge of the problem is not on - decent block of fondant on the frames within an eke

The blocks I've put on so far were about 1Kg each. Is it possible to say what constitutes a decent block?

I think I need to get a scale to try and get an accurate idea of how much food is actually in the hive....

 

[Vergilius]

I just slap my fondant in a bag above the feed hole in the cb - never had any problems with it, so don't sse the need to change...

Ben P

 

[drstitson]

"judged by what's happening in/around the hive?"

yes - if bees are still actively foraging then they'll be fine heading up into the feeders.

a decent block might be a 1/4 or more - some might slap on half a block - others slice a block and open like a book and slap it all on pre-winter rather than giving any syrup - with 25+ lbs available no need to fret (unless a very prolonged cold snap means bees cluster tightly away from stores/fondant and die of starvation).

 

[Pete D]

So far 3 - 1 then above crown board............
As for slab size I have 12 hives to feed and just cut a whole block into 12 lumps to start with, they fit quite nicely into my take away trays, top ups have been similar size.

 

[itma]

...
Any general advice on degrees C?

Thanks Drstitson!

'until too cold for regular bee activity'

judged by what's happening in/around the hive? Or by a temperature range?

I think that some of the reluctance to commit on that point may be due to the variability between bees.
Probably much better to look at what they're doing than to try and generalise about absolute measurements.

 

[Poly Hive]

When I fed copious amounts of syrup I fet in top feeders AND two frame feeders per hive until they stopped taking from the top feeders. I then took then off and continued with the frame feeders until either weather of being at full capacity stopped the feeding.

With fondant I heft the hive and if it is light then I put on a good chunk of feed roughly some 3-5 kgs. Last year I just put in on, this year I have wrapped it in cling fily to make lifting it off easier to do the oxalic.

I have the fondant on the topbars, with an eke around it, and my normal CB and poly roof on top, as the whole is poly including the eke then it keeps cosy.

No you cannot buy the ekes I made them from insulation sheet, and as they are only in use during dead winter there is no issue of chewing.

I frankly dinna understand this feeding little bits at a time. Put on a good chunk and let them alone, any left over can be turned into syrup in the Spring. No waste, job's a good un. KISS

PH