Are Carniolans piggy?

[Tremyfro]

Just been catching up with the forum.....not been on here much lately as animals are now in ...off the land and Christmas is looming on the close horizon.
One thing that caught my eye was a comment about Carniolans. As many of you know I mainly have Carniolans...plus one colony of Buckfast and one colony of locals bees.
The comment was about carniolans eating up their stores and needing more supplements perhaps than other types of bees.
I found this interesting as I hefted my hives today...I found that the Carniolans had plenty of stores. Only one colony was lighter than the others...but it still had a slab of fondant left.
So is it anecdotal or will I be finding them seriously under weight during February if they chomp through the stores more quickly than other breeds?

 

[Hivemaker.]

Don't find much difference between various lines of Buckfast, Carni or Amm here, only ones that used more stores here have been Italians.

 

[Finman]

J
The comment was about carniolans eating up their stores and needing more supplements perhaps than other types of bees.
I found this interesting as I hefted my hives today...I found that the Carniolans had plenty of stores.

That comment is simply wrong, if such even exist. Carniolans are kept in Finland in coldest areas, where winters are longest. There bees must have low consumption.
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I had 10 years Carniolans and I did not saw any difference. This is first time to hear that Carniolans eate more than Italians.

 

[oliver90owner]

The only reference I can remember anything like this thread was mine on 14th:

Late brooding bees are your worst enemy - italian strains particularly?

Perhaps misquoted or misunderstood? Brooding is not the same as winter bees gobbling through their stores. All slumbering bees, with little or no brood, will consume very little stores if they are well insulated and left undisturbed.

 

[Finman]

Late brooding bees are your worst enemy - italian strains particularly?
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Worst enemy is swarming strains

Italian strains are hundreds. Our most popular race is Italian. Buckfast are about 2%.

If I buy Italians from NZ, most of colonies will die next winter. If I buy them from Central Finland, no problem. Queen genomy may have chalkbrood and nosema sensitivity however.

 

[Hivemaker.]

The only reference I can remember anything like this thread was mine on 14th:

I think it was more likely to be this one...........

Weighed the hives.3 Buckies are a good weight.
The 2 swarms of local bees are chomping through their stores and brooding still. Be just my luck if they are somebody's Carnies

 

[Finman]

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When Eric tels about her 5 colonies, you just cannot draw conclusion from that amount of hives... And speak about races.
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If queens mate freely on your backyard, no one knows what they are. At least they are local and native.
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[For want of a better word]

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When Eric tels about her 5 colonies, you just cannot draw conclusion from that amount of hives... And speak about races.
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If queens mate freely on your backyard, no one knows what they are. At least they are local and native.
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Much so... checked out some dark bees last season from S Devon /Dorset border, that I was assured by the quite experienced beekeeper that they were Local Amms ... brood pattern and their temperament was a bit suspect... and from wing morphometry were probably Carniolian.

Concur with previous posts about winter habits of the NZ Italians, but unlike Finnmann do not have any newly imported strain to compare to.

Yeghes da

 

[Tremyfro]

Ah yes...it was Erica's comment....I was interested as I have Carniolans. So I was then thinking that I would need to keep a really close eye on their stores. However....having checked I know ATM they are fine. Last summer being cold and miserable and then the autumn was so strange what with the warm temperatures and the bees still out almost daily....I was feeding some colonies from July onwards. It was difficult to gauge how much to feed for the winter since some colonies hardly collected enough to keep them going let alone to make adequate winter stores.
One colony.....of local bees....which was a full double national and bursting at the seams with bees all summer...had made stores but kept eating them...then making more. I filled a big feeder with syrup for them and they took it all down. I couldn't hardly heft the hive! Yet a few weeks ago when I hefted it ...it was considerably lighter.

 

[For want of a better word]

Worrying to think that some will be loosing colonies by fussing and thumping colonies around....
THE perennial wintertime dilemma..of beginners and experienced beekeeperers alike... fuss faff thump trickle and feed or let alone with good Autumnal stores and let Nature take out the bees that are unsuited to local environmental conditions?

Choices?


Can hear the wolves howling in the woods.... must go and feed them!

Yeghes da

 

[BrianO]

Worrying to think that some will be loosing colonies by fussing and thumping colonies around....
THE perennial wintertime dilemma..of beginners and experienced beekeeperers alike... fuss faff thump trickle and feed or let alone with good Autumnal stores and let Nature take out the bees that are unsuited to local environmental conditions?

Choices?


Can hear the wolves howling in the woods.... must go and feed them!

Yeghes da

Indeed, agree with all the above except the " Trickle " ( Substitute maybe Vape , but same principle ).

Treat if need to, unless you are , like Pargyle monitoring carefully and running a non treatment system, we must treat as necessary.

If they are cooped up with lymph sucking mites taking the clustering as a great opportunity to hop from bee to bee and infect all ... we need to treat !.
Monitoring drop and observing for signs of sickness.

Otherwise Yes, for Gods Sake leave them alone.

How can opening up, breaking propolis seals, expecting them to re seal , chilling them, disturbing be beneficial ?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think it was more likely to be this one...........

Yes HM I was going to own up to my throw away comment when RAB posted but I'm a bit late on the forum today

 

[B+.]

I was interested as I have Carniolans. So I was then thinking that I would need to keep a really close eye on their stores.

I think the forage / weather conditions in your area have been particularly hard for bees this year Tremyfro. It was quite late in the year that you reported any significant activity. Nevertheless, the fact that some colonies did well might suggest the way you should go with your beekeeping (assuming that your hives are laid out in such a way that drifting isn't problem).
The ivy flowered late here, as it usually does, and my A.m.c. colonies were able to benefit from it. They are so heavy now that I can't lift a corner to heft the hive. The mistake that people seem to make with Carniolans is not providing them with enough brood space in the spring and they are caught out with swarming. The carniolan does grow very quickly in the spring and I find this ideal for early crops like osr.....but, colonies consume food early in the season in order to increase the colony so, I always recommend that they are left plenty of stores in the autumn. If you have done that, I am sure you will be happy with their expansion in the spring.

 

[Finman]

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British beekeepers are afraid, that sometimes you have too cold, and sometimes too warm. Nothing is good. No weathers are according wishes.

But if you look map of Europe , you see, that there are colder and warmer countries, and they manage bees.

But if you have not experience to keep bees, it is difficult everywhere, and in every weather.

If you are afraid of starving, lift the hive, how heavy it is.

In Finland, if the hive rear brood the whole autumn, it will be dead before Christmas. That is why we do not have such bee strains. And no one feed their hives on autumn, when ordinary feeding has finished in September.

We have natural selection in this case, because we cannot do anything else.

You have very easy winters out there, but you must adapt your nursing according that, as do tens of other countries. And as do experienced British beekeepers.
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Beekeeping is very easy in UK. That is why you have there too much hives compared to pastures.

Over grazing is your biggest problem. Have you noticed that. If 3/4 of your hives die, rest of hives make more honey on British Isles than recent amount.


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[Swarm]

I was under the impression that Carnies are quite frugal.

 

[Finman]

I was under the impression that Carnies are quite frugal.

Yes, they really are. And healthy bee race. Its genome is very near to Italian bee.

 

[Tremyfro]

I think the forage / weather conditions in your area have been particularly hard for bees this year Tremyfro. It was quite late in the year that you reported any significant activity. Nevertheless, the fact that some colonies did well might suggest the way you should go with your beekeeping (assuming that your hives are laid out in such a way that drifting isn't problem).
The ivy flowered late here, as it usually does, and my A.m.c. colonies were able to benefit from it. They are so heavy now that I can't lift a corner to heft the hive. The mistake that people seem to make with Carniolans is not providing them with enough brood space in the spring and they are caught out with swarming. The carniolan does grow very quickly in the spring and I find this ideal for early crops like osr.....but, colonies consume food early in the season in order to increase the colony so, I always recommend that they are left plenty of stores in the autumn. If you have done that, I am sure you will be happy with their expansion in the spring.

I am inclined to agree with you.....it was hard for the bees this year in my area. It wasn't that there are too many hives in the area...as Finman suggests as we are not over run with colonies here. It was more that, although the flowers were there, the weather was too cold for a good nectar run. My bees were doing really well in the spring build up. The OSR started to flower and the weather was awful but they still managed to bring some back. After that it was all very hit and miss. The bees made good stores...as much as 3-4 supers on some colonies.....but then the weather was cold again and very wet and windy.....so they ate the stores. After autumn feeding all my colonies had good stores.
Just a pre Xmas check on stores....and I am happy until I use the sublimator to vape the OA. The comment from Erica just raised my awareness a little. Not a bad thing to be sure all the colonies have sufficient stores before Xmas overtakes us!

 

[Tremyfro]

Worrying to think that some will be loosing colonies by fussing and thumping colonies around....
THE perennial wintertime dilemma..of beginners and experienced beekeeperers alike... fuss faff thump trickle and feed or let alone with good Autumnal stores and let Nature take out the bees that are unsuited to local environmental conditions?

Choices?


Can hear the wolves howling in the woods.... must go and feed them!

Yeghes da

I know you are keen on your local bees....but there are some of us whose local bees are not the best to handle or keep. It is likely that my Carniolans could now be described as local in any event.
I don't think anyone mentioned 'thumping colonies around' whilst hefting them.
I am sure you would be the first to suggest hefting to check the stores...but there is no need to disturb the bees further than to ensure adequate stores.
Personally, I don't have time to 'fuss and faff' with the bees....but good husbandry of stock can only be a good thing.....neglecting them is something entirely different. I can't see any point in going to the trouble of buying them, purchasing good hives and equipment...and then 'letting nature take its course'....if that means death because the beekeeper didn't check that they had enough food. If the bees don't have the wherewithal for survival...then they die...whether they are acclimatised to an area or not.

 

[Finman]

I am inclined to agree with you.....it was hard for the bees this year in my area. It wasn't that there are too many hives in the area...as Finman suggests as we are not over run with colonies here. It was more that, although the flowers were there, the weather was too cold for a good nectar run. us!

Even if you have best summers, your yields are really poor.

Best of my hives reach every year 120-150 kg/hive.
But if I put them on poor pastures, 30 kg is often maximum.

Most of our summer is too cold to bees to fly or to nectar secretion..

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[Erichalfbee]

Even if you have best summers, your yields are really poor.


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There is poor and poor, my little Finnish friend.
Most of us here are hobby beekeepers. It's a pastime not a business. Some years we have enough for the family and some to spare, others not. It doesn't really matter.
I wouldn't care to have to manage a huge stack of boxes and have to be on the ball 99% of the time.
I like to come here and talk bees, even if I mix up Carnies with Italians