Angry Bees

[pargyle]

I finally got tired of my aggressive hive and dressed in multiple layers of clothing managed to find the queen and remove her.I know that I will have to go into the hive after about 5 days to remove emergency queen cells. What I would like to know is when would be the first day I could introduce a new mated queen no point getting one to early.

I split the flying bees from the brood back in June and requeened which went well.I left all the flying bees with the supers thinking that as they were so nasty eventually they would die off .I've been keeping an eye on them and they were still bringing in loads of pollen but the numbers didn't seem to be reducing as quickly as I would expect so I opened them up today and somehow they have managed to find a new queen.With any luck she may give nicer bees than the last one,but where she came from who Knows?

I wouldn't dream of killing them, its not the bees fault that they are nasty if I have to carry on wearing multiple layers of clothing for that hive so be it.Still can't understand where the queen has come from as I'm pretty sure the supers that I left them on didn't have any eggs lavae or brood. One remote possibility one of my other hives that was superceding has gone queenless could she have come back to the wrong hive on a mating flight unlikely but just a thought.

So .. I'm not understanding ??

Which hive was the aggressive one ?

You split the hive in June and re-queened the brood box which you sited somewhere else in your apiary and you left 'the supers' in the original position of the brood box so all the fliers went back to it ?

Then the bees in the supers either raised a queen, there was a second queen already there and you missed seeing her, or another queen mistakenly went back to the supers and was still raising aggressive stock ?

Bees that are queenless and hopelessly queenless will usually be aggressive - or at least feisty - they will try and raise a queen if you just leave them to it - they don't often 'just die out' .. the flying bees will revert and you could have laying workers - although their offspring will be drones. They will even, at times, try to raise a queen from a layng workers egg ... if you left just one egg in the supers they would be trying to raise a queen from it.

Did you check for any vacant queen cells when you were inspecting today ?

There's a bit more to this than we know at present ....Fundamentally, your plan to bleed off the fliers and just let them die off was flawed ...they would, eventually, die out as a colony but it could take some time and in the meantime they will do whatever they can to survive.

If you wanted an easier job of finding the queen and that was the reason you bled off the fliers then the usual thing to do is to recombine the boxes after you have sorted the queen out - the new queen's pheremones are often enough to calm the hive until her genetics start to kick in.

 

[Motobiman]

In certain circumstances it is necessary to destroy colonies of bees and I have heard petrol mentioned.

OK so how does that work and does it mean a huge ball of flame or not and if so, is there another way?

 

[bpmurray]

In certain circumstances it is necessary to destroy colonies of bees and I have heard petrol mentioned.

OK so how does that work and does it mean a huge ball of flame or not and if so, is there another way?

Petrol kills the bees, without having to ignite it. It's how one cleans up after AFB, in which case the ball of flame is usually the solution for cleansing the hive hardware.

If your bees are aggressive, requeening and then waiting for the new queen's workers to mature is the normal way to fix the problem. I can't imagine how aggressive they have to be to consider exterminating them.

As for why they are aggressive, the reasons have been mentioned above:

• Too much messing by the beekeeper
• Heavy-handed manipulations by the beekeeper
• Poor weather conditions when being inspected by the beekeeper
• Heightened defensiveness because of an attack by wasps or other robbers, including the beekeeper
• Queenlessness
• etc.

 

[Motobiman]

Thanks bpmurray that's very helpful.

If the very unfortunate case arose and there was no other choice but petrol and destruction, would you reuse the equipment and if so, what treatment would you use before doing so?

 

[B+.]

In certain circumstances it is necessary to destroy colonies of bees and I have heard petrol mentioned.

It should only be necessary to destroy the colony if foulbrood is found. This is usually done by the seasonal bee inspector. In other cases, it should be possible to requeen the colony with a queen of better character. Of course, it can take some time for the old bees to be replaced by the new queens progeny so an out-apiary is a very useful place to keep them while they do this (~6 weeks)

 

[philipm]

Yes I did split the hive to find the queen.Because they were so bad I moved the brood box some distance away.Sorry to say I didn't have the courage to merge the flying bees again it was a very big colony and I'd had enough of getting stung.Hopefully if the weather allows this week I will be able to sort out my mistake. If I have to I'll give them a new queen. we should all learn by our mistakes and the bees continue to teach me something new each year.

 

[pargyle]

Thanks bpmurray that's very helpful.

If the very unfortunate case arose and there was no other choice but petrol and destruction, would you reuse the equipment and if so, what treatment would you use before doing so?

The ONLY reason to destroy a colony is one of the notifiable bee diseases - AFB or EFB. The decision to destroy the colony is down to the Bee Inspector and in the case of AFB there is no choice, the colony has to be destroyed and the frames burnt - the hives have to be scorched if timber and cleansed if other material. You needn't worry about how to do it as the Bee Inspector will guide you through the process, your biggest worry should not be how to destroy colonies but whether you will ever face the horror of finding AFB in your hive.

If you are unfortunate enough to find EFB then it is not mandatory that the colony is destroyed but, in some circumstances, the Bee Inspector can recommend it.

Now, I would suggest you start and ponder on the more positive aspects of beekeeping and put the horrors of killing colonies (healthy or otherwise) back in the box. A dead colony of any sort is the sort of thing you never want to see as a beekeeper - not something that most of us wish to dwell on.

 

[pargyle]

Yes I did split the hive to find the queen.Because they were so bad I moved the brood box some distance away.Sorry to say I didn't have the courage to merge the flying bees again it was a very big colony and I'd had enough of getting stung.Hopefully if the weather allows this week I will be able to sort out my mistake. If I have to I'll give them a new queen. we should all learn by our mistakes and the bees continue to teach me something new each year.

It's all a learning curve ... having been involved recently with a colony of bees that were intent on killing us (in great numbers) more than 30 yards away from them on the way in and at the hive I could barely see through the veil for the bees on it, dozens of stings on the suit ... horrendous - so I have some sympathy.

But - the question remains - which of the colonies had, apparently, re-queened themselves ?

 

[Motobiman]

The ONLY reason to destroy a colony is one of the notifiable bee diseases - AFB or EFB. The decision to destroy the colony is down to the Bee Inspector and in the case of AFB there is no choice, the colony has to be destroyed and the frames burnt - the hives have to be scorched if timber and cleansed if other material. You needn't worry about how to do it as the Bee Inspector will guide you through the process, your biggest worry should not be how to destroy colonies but whether you will ever face the horror of finding AFB in your hive.

If you are unfortunate enough to find EFB then it is not mandatory that the colony is destroyed but, in some circumstances, the Bee Inspector can recommend it.

Now, I would suggest you start and ponder on the more positive aspects of beekeeping and put the horrors of killing colonies (healthy or otherwise) back in the box. A dead colony of any sort is the sort of thing you never want to see as a beekeeper - not something that most of us wish to dwell on.

Thanks, all noted and very useful info.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

There's another element, and we'll all have seen our colonies changing colour on occasion. A Q mates with say 12 drones and lays most of the eggs she ever lays in a period of about 12 months. The semen seem not to mix fully in the spermatheca. So if it's a new phenomenon, there is at least a chance it gets a bit better in a month or two. not to advocate complacency, but it's worth bearing in mind.

 

[Motobiman]

There's another element, and we'll all have seen our colonies changing colour on occasion. A Q mates with say 12 drones and lays most of the eggs she ever lays in a period of about 12 months. The semen seem not to mix fully in the spermatheca. So if it's a new phenomenon, there is at least a chance it gets a bit better in a month or two. not to advocate complacency, but it's worth bearing in mind.

That's interesting.

So is there any research showing eggs can be laid in 'batches' either because of the 'clumping' of semen or maybe as in other species, the 'strength' of the individual sperm?

I ask as we had a similar question come up at the teaching apiary last week.

Question started in proper place.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Is the egg in bees fertilised by a single sperm or by a 'winner' from many under natural selection?

A few. Research paper here. http://digitalcollections.sit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1916&context=isp_collection

 

[Motobiman]

A few. Research paper here. http://digitalcollections.sit.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1916&context=isp_collection

Thanks that confirms the 'few' term used elsewhere and leads me onto the next question that I have posted in the proper place.

 

[philipm]

Just to clarify what I actually did the 3 supers with the flying bees were left on the original site with a floor and roof. The brood was moved away where with less bees I actually managed to find the queen and dispose of her they were then requeened the loss of the flying bees I was willing to except I know the textbook says they should rejoin the original colony but we don't always follow what the book says. Bit of a job to go through the supers when your veil and suit is covered with bees trying their hardest to sting you .When I did check the hive with the flying bees last week they were still bad but nothing like before,hopefully I can now sort them out.I put it down to experience but I don't think petrol is the way to go perhaps I'm lucky in that I have no near neighbors.

 

[Millet]

Just to clarify what I actually did the 3 supers with the flying bees were left on the original site with a floor and roof. The brood was moved away where with less bees I actually managed to find the queen and dispose of her they were then requeened the loss of the flying bees I was willing to except I know the textbook says they should rejoin the original colony but we don't always follow what the book says. Bit of a job to go through the supers when your veil and suit is covered with bees trying their hardest to sting you .When I did check the hive with the flying bees last week they were still bad but nothing like before,hopefully I can now sort them out.I put it down to experience but I don't think petrol is the way to go perhaps I'm lucky in that I have no near neighbors.

Petrol is the cowards part time bee keepers easy way out, the only time i use petrol is for the chainsaw and generator.
I have bees here that attack me in droves once i get to the brood box, on average with each weekly inspection i would say around 20 kill themselves trying too sting me and my gloves need smoke to get the balled up bees away, i am not happy about it and i will Re Queen them at some point BUT to pour petrol on them because they do what nature makes them do is mindless.

 

[viridens]

I also note that aggressive colonies often seem the most productive.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

A myth in my opinion, Bees get more aggressive if they have stores to defend so it's just an assumption that they were aggressive to begin with

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Cam gymeriad

 

[Millet]

A myth in my opinion, Bees get more aggressive if they have stores to defend so it's just an assumption that they were aggressive to begin with

Sent from my SM-A310F using Tapatalk

Why do mine defend one + half filled super + several frames of stores in the brood box on a nice day, when they are piling the nectar in from the thistle field, wasps are not a issue either, the little chits still try to kill me and my hands whatever the weather.

 

[BeeJayBee]

... the little chits still try to kill me and my hands whatever the weather.

Maybe there's something about your gloves that they don't like. If they're clean and free from pheromones from the last attack then it could be the colour or the texture. Maybe try different gloves and see what happens?