Aggressive/defensive colony - prospects for combining?

[Fritillary]

Yes, a swarm I caught earlier in the year - and do wish I hadn't

A bit defensive all along but now, even allowing for the time of year, unacceptable. Now in a 3 tier poly nuc with feeder (and now well welded together of course).

I would site them somewhere secluded over the winter but after last couple of visits think it'd be unsafe/irresponsible to put them anywhere I have available for the next 7/8? months until I can re-queen them.

Do you think: if I can find the queen, or at least confine her to small part of the whole (by moving them off some yards and placing a brood box on the original site, to which i hope to add queen-free combs as I go through the nuc boxes) will it be safe for a Q+ colony to have the new brood box full of this lot added to them above paper and queen excluder?

If I do it straight away will they still think they are Q+ and do in the receiving colony's queen? But I certainly don't want to be having to leave them for a while and then have to go through them for queen cells if I can avoid it.

Genetically speaking they have got to go, somehow or other.

(Next year I am definitely going to be putting more care into queenly matters. What with poor mating and temperament troubles this gene pool lottery is not much fun!)

 

[B+.]

Yes, a swarm I caught earlier in the year - and do wish I hadn't

A bit defensive all along but now, even allowing for the time of year, unacceptable. Now in a 3 tier poly nuc with feeder (and now well welded together of course).

I would site them somewhere secluded over the winter but after last couple of visits think it'd be unsafe/irresponsible to put them anywhere I have available for the next 7/8? months until I can re-queen them.

Do you think: if I can find the queen, or at least confine her to small part of the whole (by moving them off some yards and placing a brood box on the original site, to which i hope to add queen-free combs as I go through the nuc boxes) will it be safe for a Q+ colony to have the new brood box full of this lot added to them above paper and queen excluder?

If I do it straight away will they still think they are Q+ and do in the receiving colony's queen? But I certainly don't want to be having to leave them for a while and then have to go through them for queen cells if I can avoid it.

Genetically speaking they have got to go, somehow or other.

(Next year I am definitely going to be putting more care into queenly matters. What with poor mating and temperament troubles this gene pool lottery is not much fun!)

The best time to requeen IMHO is when the bees are naturally make new queens i.e. June/July. So, you have missed that. If you can get hold of a queen, you might still be successful this year although you have little opportunity to check acceptance and the queen hasn't much time to establish her own brood nest now (21 day worker brood development cycle as the colony is slowing down population growth).
I would leave it until next year. In the Spring, the boxes can be separated or you could place a new box on the original site and move them to "bleed off" the older bees and reduce the population so you can handle them). Also queens will be available and you have the opportunity to deal with them in better weather.
If the behaviour is as bad as you say, I would suggest that you buy in a mated queen from a reputable source. Don't rely on a virgin queen mating with the local drones.

 

[enrico]

Personally I would leave well alone till spring.the first inspection always seems to be the quietest of the year. I would find her then, when there are less bees, kill her and combine the rest. That is what I would do
E

 

[Erichalfbee]

Agree with enrico
I have had a colony from hell and they were much nicer the following spring, nice enough to unite with another colony...... still horrid but handlable

 

[Fritillary]

Many thanks all-
As you can imagine, I don't need much convincing to leave them alone for the moment! - Especially if you think they will be calmer in the spring. I don't have a spare queen and don't want to risk a viable colony.
The last two or three visits, lifting the lid for any reason, I've come away with up to 40 stings in the hood - bearing in mind this is a small colony too!
Do now have the offer of a corner of a secluded field for them if needed this winter which is very helpful. They don't follow much fortunately. At least I've treated them, and they have a feeder on top, so I won't need to open them up again until next year.

 

[enrico]

The other thing is..... Are they hungry? ...a hungry colony will be super defensive to try and keep what is left. I had a similar one earlier in the year....fed them and they are as quiet as lambs now!
E

 

[Fritillary]

I was hoping that Enrico. It doesn't seem to have made any difference so far unfortunately. (I haven't exactly wanted to look in to check on stores!!) I'll carry on feeding them whatever they take down anyway.

 

[philipm]

Leave them to the spring .If they make it through the winter, which nasty bees always seem to do there will be less of them so easier to find the queen and get rid of her.

 

[Swarm]

Leave them until Spring, they are not producing drones so no urgency. They are in a three tier nuc with feeder, I have some nucs in the same set up, just heft them to see if they are low, I checked mine today.

 

[Beefriendly]

A bit defensive all along but now, even allowing for the time of year, unacceptable.

Advertise them for sale as Cornish Amms'...should get a few hundred quid for them.

 

[oliver90owner]

Think about what would happen if you moved them a short way off the present position. The result would make it clearer.

Subsequent flights would arrive at a new colony, placed on the old site, and the bees would be accepted. The nasty colony would lose most of its flying bees, so that would be the time to find the queen and despatch her.

Whether you requeen with a mated queen now, or unite with another colony, would be your sensible choices for the depleted queenless colony. Even transferring the BIAS to other colonies would be an option...

Don’t make guesses, do the simple time-line projection and get on with it. There is still time for a virgin queen to get mated, but the chances are reducing drastically unless the current weather warms up quite a bit. I would not be starting with emergency cells or any trick like that, of course, and would not rely on mating at this time of the year.