Advice on a single sealed QC discovery

[J F]

After some advice.... Have a colony in it's second year. From a local nuc of buckfast bees. They made it through winter well. No major issues, few wax moth larvae.
They have filled a 10 frame langstroth brood box and I've put a shallow super on.

Last inspection there was a lot of cross comb going on. In part I thought because I'd tied the national frames from the nuc to langstroth frames.Didn't see the queen but brood in all stages. Didn't see eggs but that's more my eyesight.

Yesterday inspected again and found a single, charged queen cell. Lots of bees still, full brood box and all over the super. Didn't find the queen but brood in all stages. Cell was at the end of some brood comb, charged and had larva and royal jelly. Few drones.

Was the only one. And given the abundance of brood I knocked it down. I'm assuming it's a supercedure cell?
Was planning to return next week, look for the queen and knock down all but one queen cell. Assuming there are more.
Any thoughts about what I'm seeing?

My plan is to reinspect in 4/5 days and search for the queen and/or QCs, knock down all but one queen cell (which they should still be equipped to produce), then leave well alone. OR keep 2 and make a split if enough brood comb, bees and resources (which there certainly were yesterday).

Thoughts on that plan also appreciated!

 

[pargyle]

Firstly, you HAVE to make an effort to find or see eggs - I sympathise as my eyesight is not good and I have varifocal spectacles - get a magnifying glass and/or a good torch. Look closely - you will find them in cleaned cells probably on a frame of emerging brood or the frames either side. Seeing eggs is your confirmation that the queen was present two or three days ago - with a bit of practice you can get to judge the age of the eggs which is even more beneficial.

Knocking down charged queen cells (particularly if there is only one) is never a good idea - if the queen is not present (IE: dead or failing) then you have effectively removed the colony's ability to make a new one. If they were intent on swarming and the queen has gone off lay in readiness they are just going to make a scrub queen from the youngest larvae available and you are still going to have to deal with it.

The safest option, if you were not sure, would have been to put the frame with the queen cell in a Nucleus with some stores and a frame of emerging brood and shake a couple of frames of bees in with them. Then you can safely sit back for a few days and then go and look in the main hive to see what's happening. At present, you have no insurance in the event that you have no queen in your main colony or one that is failing ... Good luck, there's not a lot you can do now apart from hope for the best and keep a close eye on what they are doing.

 

[pargyle]

More so, as I see from your other post you only have one hive - beekeeping with two colonies gives you so much more available in terms of options. If you lose one you can always make another if you have a second colony, if you think you have lost a queen then a frame or patch of eggs from your second colony will tell you ... they will make queen cells if they have no queen. Make it one of your ambitions for this coming season - become a TWO colony beekeeper. (Be careful - it becomes addictive ...). You can always keep your numbers to two - combining back after swarm control, keeping the younger queens - loys of options.

Also - add your location and hive numbers to your profile - you will get more appropriate answers to your questions if we have this basic information.

 

[JamezF]

I think beginners courses should really stress that if you find queen cells during an inspection, never knock them down immediately. Close up, make a cup of tea, have a think about what you're about to do and chat it over with other beekeepers. Then go back with a plan, even if it involves knocking all the queen cells down

James

 

[ericbeaumont]

filled a 10 frame langstroth brood

Last inspection there was a lot of cross comb

Brace comb is often a consequence of a lack of space, or that you fail to close frames up tight after checking the box: wider frame spacing = brace comb, fat combs, and difficult frame management.

assuming it's a supercedure cell? Was planning to return next week, look for the queen and knock down all but one queen cell. Assuming there are more. Any thoughts about what I'm seeing?

You're seeing a colony in supersedure mode and you're trying to prevent it; the bees will outwit you, so best read their intentions and work alongside them.

Be aware that in the swarm season bees may just as easily decide to swarm on a supersedure QC. Suggest you take pro-active action to enable the supersedure and make increase: find and nuc the queen as Pargyle described; return in 5 days, check all combs in the main BB and reduce QCs to one (there are likely to be emergency cells following the removal of the queen), leave for 3 weeks and check for eggs.

If you prefer, make a simple split by dividing the BB combs and bees into two hives, or better still, vertically using another BB above a split board with an entrance; fill remaining space in both boxes with foundation frames. Return in 5 days and reduce to one the emergency QCs in one box, and any SS QCs in the queenright box.

Add another super to the colony on the original site; give the current super to the split. Add further boxes if the flow is strong and boxes fill. I had a chat this morning with a beekeeper whose bees had drawn and filled 2 BBs with nectar in a week.

brood in all stages. Didn't see eggs but that's more my eyesight.

BIAS includes eggs! As Pargyle said, you must see them (ready readers, magnifying glass, head torch) or you will not be able to establish colony status from which effective practical decisions flow.

 

[J F]

The knocking down was based on advice in an article which advised it if young brood or eggs were present. But I do see what you are saying. In theory with very young brood and lots of nurse bees/sealedbrood and resources they should be able to produce more QCs?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

My plan is to reinspect in 4/5 days and search for the queen and/or QCs, knock down all but one queen cell

you say knock down all but one at next inspection, why are you expecting loads if you suspect supersedure? or were more being built when you did this inspection?

I think beginners courses should really stress that if you find queen cells during an inspection, never knock them down immediately.

I think they should also stop teaching this nonsense about a QC in a particular location is automatically supersedure

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The knocking down was based on advice in an article

in what publication?

 

[J F]

More so, as I see from your other post you only have one hive - beekeeping with two colonies gives you so much more available in terms of options. If you lose one you can always make another if you have a second colony, if you think you have lost a queen then a frame or patch of eggs from your second colony will tell you ... they will make queen cells if they have no queen. Make it one of your ambitions for this coming season - become a TWO colony beekeeper. (Be careful - it becomes addictive ...). You can always keep your numbers to two - combining back after swarm control, keeping the younger queens - loys of options.

Also - add your location and hive numbers to your profile - you will get more appropriate answers to your questions if we have this basic information.

Also, definitely agree regards another hive. Definitely an aim so this will probably provide the necessity!

 

[J F]

in what publication?

I'll try and find it!

 

[J F]

you say knock down all but one at next inspection, why are you expecting loads if you suspect supersedure? or were more being built when you did this inspection?

I think they should also stop teaching this nonsense about a QC in a particular location is automatically supersedure

I'm not necessarily expecting loads but aware that my intervention might not have been ideal so prepared for some emergency cells.

 

[ericbeaumont]

knocking down was based on advice in an article which advised it if young brood or eggs were present

The benefit of knocking down in that situation is that the beekeeper can start from scratch and time virgin emergence. The problem is that you cannot yet see eggs, so sort that asap.

 

[pargyle]

The knocking down was based on advice in an article which advised it if young brood or eggs were present. But I do see what you are saying. In theory with very young brood and lots of nurse bees/sealedbrood and resources they should be able to produce more QCs?

If they make queens from larvae they are rarely going to be as good as one they start from an egg ...they are called scrub queens for a reason - they are an emergency fix to a colony that, without a queen, will be doomed. You usually find that they will replace a scrub queen fairly soon after she has started laying - occasionally, you might get lucky but queens from eggs are by far the better option. Another reason why you need to see eggs.

 

[J F]

The benefit of knocking down in that situation is that the beekeeper can start from scratch and time virgin emergence. The problem is that you cannot yet see eggs, so sort that asap.

To be honest that depends on my eyes on the day. I'll take some glasses in case next time though you can rest assured!

 

[J F]

If they make queens from larvae they are rarely going to be as good as one they start from an egg ...they are called scrub queens for a reason - they are an emergency fix to a colony that, without a queen, will be doomed. You usually find that they will replace a scrub queen fairly soon after she has started laying - occasionally, you might get lucky but queens from eggs are by far the better option. Another reason why you need to see eggs.

Good to know. Ta!

 

[Swarm]

A queen from day 4, a newly hatched larva, can receive sufficient feeding to become an adequate queen. Ask yourself what queen breeders select when they graft.

 

[user 819]

One QC tends to be superscedure and often is , but at this time of year they will more then likely swarm on a SS cell if there is a Q present (given that we are in swarm season).
Likely cause of SS with resident queen is lack of pheromones or older queen, if a new rplacement queen then it may be that they aren't 100% sure of her.
Check brood for eggs to confirm Q is still present.

Tearing down cells can lead to more/extra cells being produced inspect carefully and fully every nook and cranny on combs but becareful not to shake all combs .
Personally I identify frames and mark the top bar with a drawing pin, find and mark the frame for two cells. These frames are carefully handled to check I haven't missed a cell, preference is to leave an open Qc with a larvae I can date
All other frames are shaken to remove most bees and all cells removed.

 

[Erichalfbee]

If they make queens from larvae they are rarely going to be as good as one they start from an egg ...they are called scrub queens for a reason - they are an emergency fix to a colony that, without a queen, will be doomed.

No.
If that were so walk away splits and grafting queens wouldn’t work.
You get scrub queens when old bees make queen cells in desperation and don’t have resources to feed them properly

 

[J F]

No.
If that were so walk away splits and grafting queens wouldn’t work.
You get scrub queens when old bees make queen cells in desperation and don’t have resources to feed them properly

This is as I understood it. But lots of contradictory advice on it... Not had the experience to know either way.

 

[ericbeaumont]

contradictory advice

Distil and arrive at your own MO. That way, you will learn fast from your own mistakes and successes.