A positive One Size Box / 'Rose' Method discussion

[Jed D]

I'll admit it ....
I have an interest in the Rose method..

Most of our colonies are now on double brood Nationals, with view to Demaree method , once the girls get going..

I'm thinking , If we have any Queens that want even more space !!
I will add a third brood box and just let them grow...
Giving the girls all the space they can use , just seems more of a natural approach..
I'll only do this to a couple of hives and fully expect to get in a muddle at some point !!!!
But we have extra floors etc.. So can just break hives down , if they decide to explode..

P.S. I'll keep Q/X in this year ' but will also try a solid floor..

 

[Finman]

Hey Finman... interesting...

What benefits do BritKeepers think the mesh floor adds?

Finland is cold country, but lots of professional beekeepers use mesh floor open all the year round. Some use "heat bottom".

Mesh floor came with need to calculate varroa.
Polyhives need too different moist reduction system than wooden hives.

But beekeepers have allways had their secret weapon, which is self made floor.
Breakthrough in beekeeping front, as they say.

 

[wessexmario]

wessexmario!

Sounds good, and you're not far from me... I'm in North Somerset, near Cheddar of cheese fame and Thatchers Cider's 50,000+ apple trees!

I have ordered the Rose book and will be really interested to hear updates of any 'lessons learned' with your new approach, it sounds like the direction I'd like to take. You close to getting the second box on yet? Are you going to ad the second brood box below the full one?

B

Add a second deep?? - I have double deeps on both hives at the moment, but that's because of the history...

When I got the hives at the end of the season last year, they were locked completely solid with brace comb, and the boxes were home-made, varying in size from national to +/-2cm in any random direction. (I had to make a special eke to weatherproof the gap between two of the boxes!) Thankfully as the hives had been unattended for 12 months previously (one had 2 supers, the other 3) there was more than enough stores in the hives for them to get through the winter. The only preparation I did before last winter was to remove the QXs. [ps. and add OMFs & insulated coverboards]
I've just in the last few weeks managed to finally separate every last brace-combed frame, and replace all the mis-sized boxes, which is why I now have two deeps on each hive.

If I was going to start again it wouldn't be from here! Contrary to normal development at this time of year, I've just reduced my hive volumes, there is a good number of bees in each hive, with the number of bees in each I thought I might be confining them too much if I reduced it to just one deep.
So they've been reduced in physical space in order to keep the brood warm, and to make them concentrate on drawing the deep size boxes first.
A few of the frames in the deeps now are new foundation (the cross braced comb collapsed on some when I separated them) and there are a few shallow frames in there containing stores and brood, I'll be replacing those with deep frames once they've drawn all the new foundation.
Not ideal, but a vast improvement on the mess I was given and I should be able to manage a complete hive comb change by the end of this year.

 

[wessexmario]

its more complicated than you think... its certainly more complicated than I initially thought.
Definitely more complex than Finmans comments.

to get the largest effect with what you are trying to do apply, all of the following:

keep the entrance small as practical, seal up the gap where the varroa tray goes in in the side of the floor, put a super underneath the floor , add additional insulation on the top of the hive.
Whether the effect is desirable I leave up to you.

Hi Derek,
I was paying attention when I attended one of your lectures I have effectively done all that.

My floor is the depth of a super, the mesh right at the top, the inspection board slides in a centimetre below the mesh, the high walls of the box intended to give draught protection and allow space if any more tricks need to be designed in for SHB, or whatever. It's already proven it's worth in giving a convenient space to apply a vaporiser.
My periscope entrances are 9mm by 100mm, and the coverboards on both hives are over an inch think, made of a sandwich of insulation between ply.

 

[Finman]

.

It depends on quality and age of queen, how much it is able to lay.
It needs strong selection that queen can lay 2 langstroth boxes.
And in limitless brood nest queen never lay in sidemost frames.

But when I have lots of space in brood nest, bees do not store pollen in supers at all.

 

[dexter's shed]

I use rose OSB in my woodland, but also run commercials alongside, this year we will see if there's any differing results

 

[Obee1]

I was tempted by the rose hive idea. But the nuc I bought was supplied in a national brood box. When it outgrew that I added a second brood box. This year I decided I was going to try inserting rose boxes a la rose method until the colony was all in rose boxes. However the boxes are crap Weigh a ton and poor design which would be too thin for overwintering. There are no frame runners so need Vaseline to stop frames sticking. They were cheaper than hardwood but won't last as long. The four I bought are now going to be supers and Im sticking to double brood on nationals - but it's very expensive buying brood boxes. I need another four at the moment eek! I don't like QE but without them the colony will move into supers.

Obee

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I followed Finman last year (my first) and ended up with the most almighty mess in 5 boxes; the SBI was appalled as he worked his way up through it till he hit this huge brood nest at the top. That taught me something about QEs. And it gave 74 lbs of honey. I learnt a lot and am going to aim at a bit more order this year.

74 lbs, hmm - average yield on the established colonies (single national BB, and Open Mesh Floors was 170 lbs

Mesh floors are invaluable for monitoring and removing mites, and will also help in the same way with SHB when it arrives, but I think that the commercially available mesh floors are too shallow.
They don't give enough room to enclose a vapouriser, which is easier to apply under the mesh rather than pushing through the entrance

Also leaving the board in when we get SHB is a recipe for disaster - all the crud that collects on the tray is an SHB magnet.

I think that the commercially available mesh floors are too shallow.
They don't give enough room to enclose a vapouriser, which is easier to apply under the mesh rather than pushing through the entrance

I make all my own OMF's and they all have about 2½ inches between tray and mesh - also have a nice stainless steel drawer if I decide to get myself a sublimator

 

[Fatbee]

For those that find the queen lays upwards in the middle of boxes whilst leaving side frames for stores, do you do much shifting of frames around?

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

74 lbs, hmm - average yield on the established colonies (single national BB, and Open Mesh Floors was 170 lbs

www.66ka.org.uk/files/pressreleases/national_-_honey_survey_2014_1416999394.pdf

"6"="b"

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

www.66ka.org.uk/files/pressreleases/national_-_honey_survey_2014_1416999394.pdf

"6"="b"

well, all i can say is my productive colonies weighed in around 170, even the late nucs managed a couple of supers

 

[wessexmario]

Also leaving the board in when we get SHB is a recipe for disaster - all the crud that collects on the tray is an SHB magnet.

with SHB we're likely to need oil trays instead of boards.
At the moment, the boards are really useful for monitoring all sorts of things happening in the hive, without having to open.

 

[bjosephd]

Has there been any reports of SHB in the uk yet? How close have the little buggers got? What a pain!

 

[B+.]

Has there been any reports of SHB in the uk yet? How close have the little buggers got? What a pain!

Southern Italy

 

[bjosephd]

I've heard that UKIP have promised to keep SHB out of the country. Oh, and those big nasty hornets.

 

[Honeybeeco]

We've tried running no queen excluders and it makes things a little more of a pain when you have a lot of hives, because when it comes to manipulation and finding queens it it takes that little longer per outfit. I also don't like honey that's been in brood comb either but that's a personal choice and liking.

We do generally run the same size boxes thought for ease except when we bring the hives back home for heather - as we are situated in the heart of hundreds of acres of the stuff, and then we are picky in which honey box sizes we run as we either run standard shallow super boxes or even smaller snatch supers ( half the size of the shallow super boxes.) The box sizes for heather depend on weather, exact time of year and size of hives - we find the bees don't get as disheartened or overwelmed when putting smaller boxes on when taking to heather. I say disheartened as we generally don't have heather super frames with comb on from the previous year it's all been cut out the previous year for cut comb honey generally, so at the end of an already busy season, getting them to draw out comb is easier on smaller frames.

Interestingly last year even our 6 frame Nucs were filling supers up with heather at an alarming rate - of my daughter nuc started in may we got 74 1/2ib jars of it. We had so much heather honey that we were storing a lot of heather honey in frames out of the hives as we don't like to leave pure ling honey in the hives to over winter as it's very rich and makes the bees poo a lot more we find.

Boy, did I digress there

 

[Finman]

For those that find the queen lays upwards in the middle of boxes whilst leaving side frames for stores, do you do much shifting of frames around?

No problem. If there are much honey in brood frames, you just lift the frame to the upper boxes. Brood emerge and bees fill combs with honey. Then exctract.

It has not much idea. That bees must clean capped honey for brood. It is better to lift those frames up.
Same with old combs. Nothing Bailey exhanges. Lift frames up and brood come out alive, not dead.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I also don't like honey that's been in brood comb either but that's a personal choice and liking.

That's obviously a potential issue when running QE-less. Certainly the smell of slumgum when cleaning wax put me off honey for a while. Do others see it as an issue?

 

[Finman]

That's obviously a potential issue when running QE-less. Certainly the smell of slumgum when cleaning wax put me off honey for a while. Do others see it as an issue?

What! Issue to what! What old comb melting has to do with extracted honey?

And honey cannot bee in brood combs ....what!... It has allways been.

Milk cannot bee in cows tits.

 

[tudorcd]

I have been running one size boxes (mediums or 3/4 langstroths) with no excluders.
It is not a simple as it sounds, timing is essential, and inserting boxes into the brood nest is very productive when appropriate, and helps prevent swarming.
It is easy to understand when talking about the tide of brood going up the hive in spring early summer, and then the tide of honey pushing down the brood as autumn approaches. Hive may be 5 - 7 boxes high. Then honey boxes off checked of course for brood, and hives set up for winter as 3 medium boxes, the top with stores and lower 2 with brood and space. Some down to 2 boxes depending on amount of brood.
One needs to read the book to understand the theory, and try it - and hang in there whole season - to see if it works for you. Don't worry about brood all over the place, the bees fill the cells when hatched and arrange the hive how they like it.