A matter of congestion...your thoughts gratefully received.

[psafloyd]

Right, I've been very pleased with the general appearance of my hive through the winter and after first Inspection of the year last week was even more so to see good strong activity and the queen busy doing her thing. As a result, I added two frames of undrawn foundation and there was one half drawn being worked on. I also removed about 2/3 of the drone cells at the bottom of a few frames as they were all laid up, in the hope not having enough boys to show off might discourage HM from leaving. I did see drones, but only a very few.

Anyway, today, all those frames have now been drawn and filled. Yes, they all have eggs in each cell and there is a lot of capped brood. I also found bees making what I believed to be swarm cells; two, each about a quarter of the way in from the edge of one of the recently drawn frames, about half way up.
They were in very early stages, little more than a a slight curve, but clearly deviated from the normal comb. The rest of the frames are stacked with brood, pollen and honey (not sugar).

After seeing the likely congestion last week, I resolved to add a super this weekend and did so, only wishing I had done it on Saturday as they might have done a lot of deawing of comb had I done so. But, I had to get it out of storage, assemble it, make up the frames and then get it on today.

I suppose if the warm weather remains, and the bees draw the foundation in the supers for stores, they may use that and capped brood will emerge and create laying room for HM and the immediate emergency may be avoided. Once the foundation is drawn, I can bruise the stores in the brood box and hope it is redistributed.

So now, it looks like my colony is preparing to swarm, and I was hoping for some pointers in order to avoid it. Your help will be much appreciated.

Oh, didn't see HM today, by the way. Probably a bit sheepish as I know she wants to leave me. But she's been there very recently, as many of the eggs in the new comb were very fresh, ie 1-2 days old. I'd have called, but I've only seen her once in six months and we're not on first name terms. I mean, she is royalty, after all.

I should add, I have a brood box, supers, frames and foundation all ready to be made up this week, as I was planning to get ready in case at some time I needed to split my colony. This was something I hadn't thought would be necessary just now and perhaps isn't.

 

[Silly Bee]

If all the cells have eggs, you have a good queen imo.

Give her more room, or do a split is what I would do.

I'll now wait for the alternatives.

 

[beebreeder]

Make the new box up anyway, if you don't need it next w/end you sure will soon, and if its ready it makes things easier
kev

 

[psafloyd]

Silly Bee,

How would you go about the split? I know in theory as it is in all the books, but are there any particular things to look out for that aren't in the books?

 

[psafloyd]

Make the new box up anyway, if you don't need it next w/end you sure will soon, and if its ready it makes things easier
kev

I fully intend to, Kev. Would have been been done a few weeks back but for one of those hiccoughs life throws at you.

 

[Silly Bee]

Old queen in one hive with flying bees on old site. Queen cells and nurse bees, brood in the other. Let the queen cells hatch on new site.

 

[psafloyd]

Any rule of thumb for how far away 'new site' can be?

 

[Silly Bee]

As I understand it, leave the cells in a new nuk, or hive, the flying bees go back to the original, then after a few days, move the new hive/nuk to where you want it, the new bees that fly, will orientate and call it "home"

 

[oliver90owner]

I would not be splitting my only colony now, unless they actually show definite intent on swarming (occupied queen cells).

It is not yet half way through April and the weather can be difficult for early mating in the UK, and certainly early in May. Every week waited is a bonus, as I see it. There are too many, already, having mis-fires with only the single colony. Walk before you try running, is my advice.

When you have several (or even just two) is the time to start to try upping the pace!

Adding a second brood and getting it drawn and part filled with brood, before making a split, is a far better way to go at the present time - provided, as I said, there are no loaded queen cells about to be fired off!

Regards, RAB

 

[psafloyd]

I would not be splitting my only colony now, unless they actually show definite intent on swarming (occupied queen cells).

It is not yet half way through April and the weather can be difficult for early mating in the UK, and certainly early in May. Every week waited is a bonus, as I see it. There are too many, already, having mis-fires with only the single colony. Walk before you try running, is my advice.

When you have several (or even just two) is the time to start to try upping the pace!

Adding a second brood and getting it drawn and part filled with brood, before making a split, is a far better way to go at the present time - provided, as I said, there are no loaded queen cells about to be fired off!

Regards, RAB

Thanks for that. Walk is indeed what I intend to do, Rab. Less chance of falling on one's face.

I'd also rather have one strong colony than two compromised ones, especially as we don't know whether last year will repeat itself and give us a very late heavy frost in May.

So you'd recommend adding a second brood. Above or below the current one, and would I leave it in with fully undrawn frames or would a mix and match approach be more appropriate?

If I was in this position in May, I'd do an artificial swarm without hesitation, but I was hoping to avoid that just now if I can.

 

[oliver90owner]

second brood.

If, as I understand, you have already supered (with a Q/E), the only obvious choice is under at this present time. That would be far too much space over the brood in a short period, otherwise.

I double brooded one of mine yesterday on top, but they are a sight stronger than yours (bursting 14 x 12). See how they go and swap the broods later. They might swarm anyway, one can never tell if they have been overcrowded already.

heavy frost in May

I would not care a jot about a frost - a minor problem - and clear, frosty nights are often following, or preceding, a hot day. Bad for the garden (frosted spuds or runner beans, etc), but good for the queens.

The mating flights require warm temperatures in the early afternoon, so that may be ideal, but it is the cool, wet and windy days on end that we, in Britain, often have to endure, as summer is 'supposed' to be approaching, that severely reduce the chances of a queen succesfully mating.

Regards, RAB

 

[Poly Hive]

I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding going on here.

This person has seen incipient queen cells (play cups) being created as far as I can tell. Absolutely normal.

Did you see grubs in these odd cells Pasafloyd?

And also when describing a colony it is not helpful to say, strong, or bursting with bees, as I had one yesterday that a newbie might describs as such but it only had 6 frames of brood so far from "strong" which I would begin to use at 10 frames of brood.

Frames of brood is the measure needed people.

PH

 

[oliver90owner]

I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding going on here.

None as far as I am concerned. I simply answered the thread on the information supplied, with most of the scenarios covered.

He has already acted, rightly or wrongly, was not my concern as I have not told him what to do, only made suggestions.

When I said bursting, that is exactly what I meant. It was a choice (for me) of either adding a shallow or an extra deep. I wanted more drawn brood frames to replace those 'lost' from last year, the bees needed brooding space urgently and I am expecting, if the weather continues as the last few days (the big proviso) I will needing to be adding supers in the next week and will be adding at least one anyway.

On this occasion, I did not disturb the colony to count brood frames. I already knew there were at least eight full frames of brood the last time I looked in and I know when I checked. For those reading this please note on this occasion a brood frame is not a deep National.

Psafloyd said in his thread starter 'So now, it looks like my colony is preparing to swarm, and I was hoping for some pointers in order to avoid it. Your help will be much appreciated.'

I have neither agreed nor disagreed with that assessment - as I said, you never know, if they have been overcrowded (no laying space), if they may swarm imminently or not. I might see other other signs if I were actually observing the colony first hand.

RAB

 

[Bee-Key-Pur]

second brood.

I double brooded one of mine yesterday on top, but they are a sight stronger than yours (bursting 14 x 12)..................



RAB, I have a question on adding a second BB.

If one puts the second BB on top of the original BB, won't the bees see it as a honey super and fill it with honey?

If that's not the case, why not? and what happens if you were to put it under the original BB?

Thanks.
Brian.

 

[Poly Hive]

My comments were not for you Rab but for the OP.

PH

 

[oliver90owner]

P H,

That's OK then.

BKP,

I don't really care! If they brood, they brood; if they store, they store.
The colony needed space for brooding and storing - now on the OSR.

I can get them to move any stores later, if I really need. Whatever I put on will get stores in it of some kind at/for some time.

The important thing with this colony was to get extra space and I considered the extra brood as a good option in this particular instance. Simply adding a super over a Q/E was not on the agenda. It would not avert possible early swarming (due to brood box congestion).

As a simple answer to your questions - yes to first, they will fill it with honey, but only full with honey if I Q/E it, so she cannot lay there.
The second case they will build comb downwards as required, when above is full (with brood or stores below any Q/E).

Think about it - If one was to put, say, 3 brood boxes of foundation under the broodnest, and not super the hive at all, the colony would simply slowly move the nest downwards, as above was filled with stores, just like a natural nest, but with frames provided (naturally they would build 'wild' comb). The analogy might be the Warre system.

Regards, RAB

 

[nonstandard]

Answering the OP's question, they sound like play cups and in that mean nothing. It would pay to be prepared for an artificial swarm but it is not necessary until there are definite queen cells which are occupied but unsealed.

Both my colonies up here in Derbyshire have play cups and drones, one is on 8 14x12 frames of brood and the other on 5. I have supered the larger one with foundation but am not expecting to be doing an AS for a while yet although I am prepared.

 

[psafloyd]

Did you see grubs in these play cups?

PH

No, PH, they were indeed incipient and aS I may not make it back for a week, I played safe and destroyed them. I had thought many of the play cups were distributed more toasted the edges of the frames, but of course, what do I know, that's why I'm asking.

as for the frames, the first three were the new ones and laid up with eggs, the next two with 40/50% capped brood, the rest stores, while The rest were 70% capped brood.

There were some drones, but few larvae for the numbers of capped brood and eggs, suggesting to me she may have been forced to stop laying now I think about it.

 

[Dishmop]

Think about it - If one was to put, say, 3 brood boxes of foundation under the broodnest, and not super the hive at all, the colony would simply slowly move the nest downwards, as above was filled with stores, just like a natural nest, but with frames provided (naturally they would build 'wild' comb). The analogy might be the Warre system.

Exactly how it works....

 

[Poly Hive]

No grubs in play cups = no intent to swarm.

Grub in play cup, then intent to swarm.

PH