A good top bar hive book

[Greggorio]

It's for a friend. I was talking to her about top bar hives and she wants to try them out so I downloaded her a copy of Emile Warre's book and would like a modern beginners book that will explain the basics of beekeeping from a topbar hive point of view (it doesn't need to be hugely wishy washy regarding nature etc, the aspect she likes most if the hands off approach and leaving the bees to it)

 

[Greggorio]

does one not exist?

 

[mintmoth]

The care of bees in Warre and top bar hives without chemicals by Joe Bleasdale.

Covers just about all the topics, £4.62 digital, hard copy about £12

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Care-Warré-...&qid=1440010932&sr=1-3&keywords=joe+bleasdale

 

[pargyle]

does one not exist?

There are very few ... lots of stuff on the internet but you really need to know a bit about bees in order to sort out the wheat from the chaff. Even though I started out intending to be a Top Bar Hive beekeeper the more I found out the more I realised (in the UK at any rate) that it's not really a good hive for a beginner.

I would be buying your friend the Haynes Manual of Beekeeping and suggesting they start with a more conventional hive with frames. Much easier and when it all goes arse over apex (which it will) there's a lot more chance that someone has seen it/done it/cocked it up before and advice/solutions will be easier to come by.

There's quite a few people on here with TBH's but they will almost certainly offer you similar advice ...

 

[madasafish]

There are very few ... lots of stuff on the internet but you really need to know a bit about bees in order to sort out the wheat from the chaff. Even though I started out intending to be a Top Bar Hive beekeeper the more I found out the more I realised (in the UK at any rate) that it's not really a good hive for a beginner.

I would be buying your friend the Haynes Manual of Beekeeping and suggesting they start with a more conventional hive with frames. Much easier and when it all goes arse over apex (which it will) there's a lot more chance that someone has seen it/done it/cocked it up before and advice/solutions will be easier to come by.

There's quite a few people on here with TBH's but they will almost certainly offer you similar advice ...

I started with TBHs and now have Langs and TBHs.

I agree with Pargyle. TBH designs - as on the internet - require lots of detail changes to be usable in a colder climate. Wintering is an issue.

A hinged roof is ESSENTIAL in my view if you want to avoid back problems..
You need to make your own in frame feeders (easy to do).
Inspection can be difficult - a comb holder is essential.


Not many around here - winter kills them off. Mine are heavily modified and insulated.

OK in warm climates and mild winters.

 

[Tremyfro]

I read a good book on TBH.
Top-Bar Beekeeping by Les Crowder and Heather Harrell.
It's am American book...so you have to think about the difference in climates. Some parts of the USA have similar climate to the UK.

 

[Fritillary]

It would certainly be very helpful to have a booklet which incorporated the best of UK TBH-ers findings, suggestions, tips and design additions and adaptations.

It would make it an awful lot easier for folk to start out with their TBH - and be very helpful for their bees also - especially as people are less likely to find experienced TBH owners near them.

Madasafish - you sound like a good candidate -? -?!

(My comb holder's one of an old nest of side tables. That works v well when inverted on top of one end of the hive, once the roof is off, as it has supporting bars near the bottom of its legs for the comb to hang on, and the table top acts as a floor to catch any bees etc falling off.)

 

[pargyle]

It would certainly be very helpful to have a booklet which incorporated the best of UK TBH-ers findings, suggestions, tips and design additions and adaptations.

It would make it an awful lot easier for folk to start out with their TBH - and be very helpful for their bees also - especially as people are less likely to find experienced TBH owners near them.

Madasafish - you sound like a good candidate -? -?!

(My comb holder's one of an old nest of side tables. That works v well when inverted on top of one end of the hive, once the roof is off, as it has supporting bars near the bottom of its legs for the comb to hang on, and the table top acts as a floor to catch any bees etc falling off.)

In many respects I agree and MDF has about as much experience with them on here as anyone ... but, part of the problem is that people who operate TBH tend to arrive at a TBH design more as the result of trying to find a cheaper way into keeping bees. Often associated with a concept (promoted by quite a few so called 'natural' beekeepers) that it is 'easy' and 'good for the bees' and the bees can be left largely to their own devices. Would that this was true - if it were I'd have a field full of them !

These are almost certainly not the people who would go out and buy a book like this so as a commercial proposition the target market to start with is low and lowered by the nature of the people it would be targeted at - I wouldn't recommend it as as route to a best seller.

The other difficulty (as MDF says) is that TBH designs are mostly derived from their original concept as a low cost design using materials available in the countries they were intended for .. the clue is in their names - Kenyan TBH and Tanzanian TBH. Very different climates to the UK. These thin wall designs and lack of roof structures are completely unsuitable for use in Northern European locations - but the information often available on the internet rarely identifies these inadequacies.

Having seen a TBH set up by a local new beekeeper without a roof - just with the top bars forming the top of the hive, walls made of thin plywood - and a small swarm of bees trying to build comb in a cavernous space I enquired where the idea came from ... Youtube... a backyard beekeeper in the Southern states of America. He now has a couple of polystyrene hives and the TBH has plants in it !

A new beekeeper, with little actual beekeeping knowledge, will have enough to contend with without the added problems of discovering and accommodating the physical disadvantages of operating a TBH.

 

[itma]

...
A new beekeeper, with little actual beekeeping knowledge, will have enough to contend with without the added problems of discovering and accommodating the physical disadvantages of operating a TBH.

Absolutely.

Frames (and foundation) make it easier for a beginner to start beekeeping.
Lack of frames adds extra difficulties.

Best is to keep things as simple as possible at the beginning. The bees will provide plenty of puzzles - extra ones aren't needed!

 

[itma]

It's for a friend. ... the aspect she likes most if the hands off approach and leaving the bees to it)

There's a couple of major misapprehensions there!

 

[Greggorio]

There's a couple of major misapprehensions there!

As with most things on this site it seems people who don't use something have a tendency to be negative about it.

Warre hives were the aim for my friend and they are widely used in France.

Can someone explain the difficulty. Assuming you leave the bees to it and let swarms leave, supercedure etc etc. Where is the problem? I'm genuinely interested in what makes them far more difficult and what cannot be left alone.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

 

[user 6228]

As with most things on this site it seems people who don't use something have a tendency to be negative about it.

Warre hives were the aim for my friend and they are widely used in France.

Can someone explain the difficulty. Assuming you leave the bees to it and let swarms leave, supercedure etc etc. Where is the problem? I'm genuinely interested in what makes them far more difficult and what cannot be left alone.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk

if you want real natural beekeeping (i.e. as warms as a tree) you will have to put far more insulation on than you will read on any of the natural beekeeping sites i.e 50mm + PIR or 75mm+ polystyrene or 90 mm + reclaimed wool bats on all sides with no top entrance/vent and measures to stop heat loss out of the bottom (solid insulation or mesh with tall sheltered air cavity below). IMHO a TBH is not a good idea to "leave alone" unless you are making it only 50 Litres or less

 

[madasafish]

In the UK, many of the people who use topbar hives are notorious for extremely bad housekeeping - not my view but the comment of a UK Bee Inspector to me.

The UK Bee Inspectors job is to treat disease outbreaks and prevent its spread- I understand many UK TBHs are cross combed (Lack of inspection), dirty and the "beekeepers" tend to be enthusiastic for their first year - and then lose patience and give up. (as do many conventional beekeepers).

A neglected TBH is very difficult to inspect- propolised bars, combs stuck to the walls of the hive, cross combing.. etc.. Been there , done that..

 

[pargyle]

As with most things on this site it seems people who don't use something have a tendency to be negative about it.

I think you will find that the people who have responded are not negative - just cautionary about new beekeepers using TBH as a first hive. Most of the responders actually DO have some experience of TBH.


Warre hives were the aim for my friend and they are widely used in France.

Yes ... and they are in use over here.. but if anything they are harder to manage than TBH and the small boxes make them far from being 'let alone' hives - during the season it is necessary to continually add more boxes - at the bottom of the stack (nadiring). Abbe Warre kept bees long before Varroa and more modern, hybrid, bees which are much more prolific.

Can someone explain the difficulty. Assuming you leave the bees to it and let swarms leave, supercedure etc etc. Where is the problem? I'm genuinely interested in what makes them far more difficult and what cannot be left alone.

Well ... as you are in France (and I assume your friend is ?) you have much more space around you than we have over here in the UK. You really would be considered antisocial in the UK (where much of our beekeepers are located in urban or semi-urban) if you did nothing to prevent swarming. Varroa is a real problem over here and whilst I don't treat for varroa the need to be vigilant about whether the bees are coping with the mites (which will be present) is one of the priorities in British beekeeping. You cannot just leave managed bees to get on with it if you are going to have bees in a hive.

If your friend is so keen on 'just having bees' then put pollinator plants in the garden, provide some bumble bee houses or provide habitat for solitary bees rather than trying to cope with honey bees. An unruly colony of honey bees will be more trouble than they are worth and is a very real possibility.

 

[Fritillary]

I'm sorry Greggorio - got sidetracked into talking about horizontal top bars, quite a different animal from a Warre. Has your friend looked at David Heaf's website and books on Warre beekeeping?

 

[pargyle]

I'm sorry Greggorio - got sidetracked into talking about horizontal top bars, quite a different animal from a Warre. Has your friend looked at David Heaf's website and books on Warre beekeeping?

Well .. although they are vertically arranged boxes the principles of frameless top bars are the same ... as I said earlier, Warre's are actually harder to look after than horizontal top bar hives. At least with HTBH you can lift the odd comb out to have a look .. Warres are a real nightmare as the bars are nailed in and inspections are done by tilting the box and looking at the comb from underneath ... for a beginner being able to see, from such an angle, what is going on is not going to be easy.

There are one or two on here who consider Warre's the spawn of the devil I'm afraid and my experience with a 'left alone' Warre hive in a friends garden rather leads me to agree with them. Trying to separate Warre boxes with a cheeswire left honey dripping and chopped off brood everywhere and then dismantling a pile of four or five boxes in order to add another box at the bottom was not my idea of fun beekeeping.

If Greggorio's friend is thinking of square bee boxes they might as well go the whole hog and get a framed hive ... it can always be run without foundation.

 

[Fritillary]

If I had a Warre I would use unnailed bars and castellations or spacers I think. Just because bars are moveable it doesn't mean that you ever have to move them, but you can if you want to, and I think it mad to do otherwise especially in a country with notifiable bee diseases and compulsory inspections.

From D Heaf's site:
Many modifications have been introduced, some of which depart in varying degrees from Warré's intentions of simplicity, economy and bee-friendliness. However, some of the modifications may eventually prove to be necessary, for instance in climates other than that of France, or in areas where legislation requires combs to be easily movable. We therefore offer descriptions of these variants in separate pages accessible via the links below ... etc.

and also:
The combs are pinned in place at each end with a single 20 x 1 mm Japanned gimp pin which has had the head cut off. The comb can be lifted off the pin with the fingers and, provided it is carefully re-positioned, pressed back in place.

- Have recommended the Biobees forum to Greggorio, as on there he will find some Warre owners with years of hands-on experience of using them.

 

[drex]

I have mainly nationals, but also a Warre and two HTBH's. I started with Nationals and am glad I did, as TBH require good basic beekeeping skills, and then the extra skills of a frameless hive. The TBH's have taught me a lot about bee behaviour.
I think of these hives as more bee-centric than keeper-centric, however I continue to be a Responsible beekeeper. For example in the warere I have castellattions , having talked to a bee inspector about problems he has had in inspecting Warres
I do not inspect them as often as my Nationals, and will treat for disease as and when needed.
They are fun to inspect, the bees hardly knowing you are there

 

[Russel]

Maybe OT but at the beginning of the year Coleg Gwent invited us and several other interested parties to a meeting on keeping bees on campus. Our cautionary advice as to type of hives, training, location, swarm and pest managment appear to have been ignored.
Last paragraph on this page says it all!
Coleg Gwent abuzz with bees

 

[pargyle]

Maybe OT but at the beginning of the year Coleg Gwent invited us and several other interested parties to a meeting on keeping bees on campus. Our cautionary advice as to type of hives, training, location, swarm and pest managment appear to have been ignored.
Last paragraph on this page says it all!
Coleg Gwent abuzz with bees

Well ... I hope their bees (if they are still alive in Spring) conveniently swarm and occupy the empty hive that they have provided for them ... I will take some of mine down there so that they can train them for me if it happens ...